Clicker training (Ebyss's threads)

[Teegee]

I am piecing Ebyss's clicker training threads together, as quite a few of us are interested in what she is doing.


= Ebyss Clicker Training.

That is what I would use, and have used, to train some of my horses. I do pretty much everything in hand first (I love groundwork) and then transfer it to the saddle - as Teegee says they often understand it better. From my point of view, it's more about the process and the journey than the end result so I don't mind taking my time with things.

Before doing any of the ridden/tacking up etc evasion work, I would again do as Teegee said - check for pain, and try and find out WHY there is a problem - does the horse just not understand what is being asked of him? Can he physically not do it? Does it hurt when he gets his saddle on etc etc? Back, teeth checked straight off for newly bought ridden horses anyway. If I got that horse my first assumptions would be that his problems stem from a combination of discomfort and incomplete training. Saddle would also be thoroughly checked. If he really did not understand a leg aid other than "forward" - I'd get back to basics and teach lateral work, flexion, polework and responsiveness on the ground. When he understands what is being asked of him, then I would start asking him under saddle, working on one thing at a time until he is comfortable with his lessons.

To be honest, the last part of the puzzle I'd work on is the difficult to catch bit. Usually I've found that when the horse understands that work is pleasant, fun and rewarding the issues with catching go away. Occasionally they don't. I'd still clicker train for that, but I'd set myself up for success and make life EASY for myself; when horse comes in stable, he gets dinner and some relaxing time before work. Bring other horses in first. If that horse insists upon staying out alone, let him - he'll get bored eventually. If it's for urgent veterinary treatment obviously I'd do whatever it took to bring the horse in. I wouldn't leave him out in the field with a massive gash and a swollen hock which happened to someone else I know because the staff at the yard couldn't catch the horse (and had decided to introduce a new fieldmate while the owner was on holiday!).

Essentially I'd make my judgements based on common sense and safety, I'd give the horse the benefit of the doubt in just about every situation, since getting angry with him would do me no good in the long run anyway (and who likes learning with an angry teacher?). The actual process of helping the horse to understand what I want would be done with Clicker Training, since this is the method I am most comfortable with using.

Personally I find all training methods are likely to work just as effectively with every horse - there is no one perfect method that suits all horses. It is really all about what suits the trainer and what method they feel most comfortable using. I have zero objection to both the BHS and Natural Horsemanship methods, I'm just not very good at either of them. I AM good at clicker training and I LOVE it so that's what I use. I doubt my horses care one way or the other as long as I don't constantly beat the crap out of them. I personally endeavour to make learning as much fun for my horse as possible.

[Teegee]

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Quote: teegee

I have zero knowledge on clicker training Ebyss. Does this extend to ridden work?

Quote: Ebyss

It sure does! Basically clicker training is just a method of teaching a horse - what lessons you choose to teach are up to you. The click just means "Yes, correct answer" and the horse understands this concept fully when you introduce him to the clicker correctly. It's a way of telling the horse what he just did was the right thing to do. Clearly there are many ways of doing this, you don't need a clicker to do it! For me, I like the science behind CT since I have a degree in psychology and an ongoing interest in behaviour, behaviour modification techniques and also evolutionary biology and ethology. Clicker Training is very much a scientist's way of animal training - it just so happens that it is a lot of fun for the animal and the trainer. It's probably as far away from natural horsemanship as you can get (not that I've a problem with NH at all!).

There are no real limitations to CT - you can use it whenever and whereever YOU feel it's appropriate. It really is just a tool, it's up to the trainer to figure out how to teach the horse the behaviour they want. The click is just a really fast, clear, concise way to tell the horse "you got it right! good job". This suits me and my style of training, but it doesn't suit everybody. For some it seems very unnecessary, for me it's absolutely necessary.

Beezie Madden trained her horse Judgement usinng CT when they just could not get him over water jumps. They tried everything, but it was CT that worked for the horse. He learned to enjoy water jumps since he understood the concept of getting it right AND getting rewarded for the exact behaviour the rider wanted.

Think about doing a full showjumping round, slowing down to a walk and then patting your horse for a job well done. Now, does he know you're grateful for his good jumping efforts, or does he think you just rewarded him for slowing down to a walk? Because of the way the horse's brain works, it's the latter. You just rewarded him for coming back to walk. He got no reward for jumping other than being allowed to stop jumping and leave the ring. Nothing wrong with that - every horse is trained that way and they do just fine! Release of pressure is the cornerstone of horsemanship, and always as been - whether you stop kicking when the horse moves off, release the reins when the horse yields or stop running the horse in a round pen.

In CT you would teach the horse to jump one jump at a time (as you would normally) and you would click the moment the horse is in the air. He would get the reward a bit after the jump, when it's safe. You build up to clicking every second jump, then every third, and so on, until the horse does a whole course of jumps, and just gets clicked for the last jump - he then gets his treat when he comes back to walk. Because you have conditioned the horse to understand that the click means "correct! you will get a treat in a moment" he understands that the reward is for the jumping effort, not for coming back to walk. He enjoyed his jumping, he got rewarded for it and he understands WHY.

With Beezie and Judgement, it was a necessary tool for them to help the horse understand that water wasn't scary, and that they needed him to jump it. He learned that as he was jumping in the air over the water jump, that was the specific behaviour they wanted, and understood that he would get rewarded for it. They built up to doing Spruce Meadows, and he flew over the water jump. Beezie "clucks" with her tongue as he is in the air over the water; Judgement knows he did the right thing and that a treat will follow soon - he continues his jumping round, and at the end, Beezie comes back to a walk, digs a treat out of her pocket and rewards him. All are happy, no-one was bullied and the horse ultimately made his own decision whether to go over the jump. That's a major tenet of Clicker Training (and something most people don't like) - there are no negative consquences if the horse chooses NOT to do the behaviour you asked for. He doesn't get a smack. It is totally his choice whether or not he performs. To date, I've not heard of a horse refusing to work in those circumstances - he understands the system of "I do this, I get a reward". Really it's no different to the normal way of training which is "I do this, I get a rest/release".

The end result should be exactly the same - a mannerly, well trained horse that is happy to work. Clearly, people have been achieving this without the aid of a clicker and treats for donkey's years. It's just that this method suits me, so I use it.

Heather Moffett in England trains her Lusitanos to do classical dressage moves using CT - the horses are willing performers. The real benefit to using clicker training as opposed to "normal" training is that you can pinpoint EXACTLY the moment the horse was doing what you wanted. So if you want more expression in the piaffe, you click the instant you get a higher leg lift - the horse understands the concept of "I just did that right" and is usually eager to do it again since he knows a reward will be forthcoming. From a scientific standpoint, CT (or positive reinforcement) is known to be the quickest and most efficient method of teaching mammals. It doesn't mean that everyone should use this method or they're WRONG It's just another tool in the toolbox, an option for people to use if they want to.

People often don't like the use of food rewards because they feel the animal is just interested in food and not them; and that's understandable. However, it doesn't really work like that, any more than "normally trained" horses only work for you because they know they'll either get a beating if they don't, or that they know they'll be allowed to stop soon. After the initial process of learning, horses learn to enjoy their work, and look forward to a good day's hunting, or going cross country or whatever. It's the same with Clicker Trained horses. You phase out the clicker and food once the horse really understands what is being asked of him - I mean, it's the same with people, imagine your mum was still giving you gold stars because you used the toilet? She did that when you were learning to use the potty, but it would be downright annoying if she did it when you were an adult! You can observe the same reaction in animals, they get frustrated if they are constantly being rewarded for something they already know how to do well.

I will say, like every training method, it's easy to go wrong with CT. This is why the most important tool in the toolbox of EVERY horse trainer is common sense. Everything else is just icing on the cake really.

[Teegee]

Quote: teegee


What would be the difference in for example giving the horse a reward after a jump etc. but not using the click? How important is the sound?

Quote: Ebyss


CT actually started with dolphins since trainers literally could not get the animals to work consistently for them. All those neat dolphin tricks like jumping through hoops and blowing bubble rings on cue are trained using CT. They don't use a click though, the dolphin wouldn't hear it under the water, they use whistles.

People then started to look at the possibilities for training other animals, dogs was an obvious one - everyone has a dog, and using treats while training dogs wasn't that inappropriate. Previously, the majority of professional dog trainers used harsh methods like heavy corrections with choke chains etc - so CT was a welcome break from that, both for dog and owner.

A few brave souls tried it with horses. The principles for training ALL mammals using ALL training systems revolves around a few core learning techniques - this is just how the mammalian brain works, it's how animals (and humans) learn things, no matter how you teach them; the big one is conditioning, both classical and operant. When anybody teaches a mammal, they use one of only a few teaching techniques - positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, negative punshiment... then you can get into things like habituation etc. Psychologists basically put names to the kinds of techniques we used (whether we knew we were using them or not) and quantified them from a scientific point of view. It's actually really cool that this kind of thing can be measured scientifically and replicated over and over.

With horses you have slightly different things to take into consideration - first off, they are large, dangerous animals. Safety comes first. Secondly, it's not enough to just use CT, you gotta use your common sense - so you need some horse sense before you start training. With dogs, it's fair to say most beginners could (and do) have a go at training a puppy from scratch, just muddling through. You just can't do that with horses. Finally, you do need to understand the scientific process behind what you're doing - it's not enough to understand how to make a click and then throw a treat at the animal. Timing is REALLY important, vital in fact. Get it wrong and you're just teaching the horse something else... I've seen this happen so many times with people who try CT for the first time.

Horses are just mammals, they're brains work like other mammals, they learn like other mammals - CT works on the basis (proven by science) that mammals learn faster, better and with greater understanding in an environment that allows them to make mistakes without being punished, that allows them to develop problem solving skills (you'd be amazed how good horses are at this!) and in an environment where they are rewarded for their efforts - basically, an enjoyable learning environment vs an environment where they may get a smack for getting something wrong, where they are not given time to figure out what they are being asked etc etc. Point being - positive reinforcement creates a better, faster learning experience than punishment.

Please note - negative reinforcement does not mean punishment. We ALL use neg reinforcement in every single interaction with our horses, including CT'ers. Basically, neg reinforcement is when you apply an unpleasant stimulus and remove it when you get the behaviour you want. It is the cornerstone of NH and BHS training - you apply a leg aid, the horse moves away, you stop applying leg aid. That's neg reinforcement. Clearly that is not punishment, and the horse learns just fine using purely neg reinforcement.


Quote:

What would be the difference in for example giving the horse a reward after a jump etc. but not using the click? How important is the sound?


The sound is vital - otherwise the horse doesn't get that you were rewarding him for the jump, he thinks he got rewarded for continuing on the other side (or stopping if you stopped to give him a treat). The "click" (and it can be any sound you choose) is the signal that tells the horse "the behaviour you did the very second I clicked was correct, you will get a treat in a moment or two". The reward ONLY comes after he has been clicked, and because you have done basic lessons in CT with the horse, he understands the meaning of the click - it means "YES! Correct!!". The reward itself just gives meaning to the clicker, it teaches the horse that the click sound is a good thing, that he will get a treat soon after he hears it and that he only gets a click when he does what you asked. He understands fully what the click means and so you have a really precise way of training minute details in behaviour.

Btw - you don't have to use food rewards, but they are the most motivating. For horses that cannot or will not have food scratches are often used. This is very successful with foals and youngsters. For horses literally terrified of human contact, simply backing away from them after the click is reward enough. Food is the easiest and best motivator though.



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sorry to ask you to type more (you explain very well!) But could you give us examples of how you'd use CT practically to solve some of the issues with this particular horse? thx

I'll do this in my next post



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Ebyss I would be very interested in CT for Diarmuid for his XC issues and would be delighted if you could give me any tips on how to get started.

The best way to get started is just to read some of the literature available to see if it's something that suits you. It will always suit the horse since he is a mammal and learns like a mammal, but like all things some people just get frustrated or annoyed with CT (in the way I get exhasperated with using some other methods). I have a tonne of books, I'll lend you a good starter which will explain things better than I can. You going to be in the Horse Show? I'll bring one in for you.

[Teegee]

Quote: Ebyss

Ok, because I'm going on and on in my post above (and coz I have Pilates in half an hour), I'll take three of the above problems (in the first post) and give a quick rundown of how I would approach them using CT. I am going to assume back, teeth, saddle fit, bridle fit etc etc have all been checked and are fine - these are purely training issues. The horse has done basic clicker work and understands the concept.


Quote:

2. Horse doesn't like saddle being put on at all and moves about during tacking up.

Horse is loose in stable. I'm in there too, with my very glamorous bumbag full of treats and a clicker (I use a tongue "clock" myself, but clicker is fine, and good for beginning horses). The saddle is there too, on the floor. Since this is a PROBLEM for the horse I am going to be very helpful and generous the whole time. He will be rewarded for every little try. I split the behaviour down into tiny managable chunks. In order for him to stand still while I put the saddle on, he must first stand still - so that's what we work on. I let him wander about his stable and the instant, the nanosecond, that he stops he gets a click and a treat. He's excited! We're playing the CT game! He walks around a bit because he's trying to figure out what he did that got him the click. He eventually comes to a stop again - click and treat. For really intelligent horses, that is enough for them to understand you want them to stop. For less intelligent horses, or horses not as clued in to the clicker it might take a bit longer. We're working with an intelligent horse. So he knows you want him to stop. So he stands there without walking around first. Click and treat. He's still standing there, CT again. Now maybe wait for 2 seconds. Click and treat. Now wait for 4 - did he move off? "I was standing here and you didn't click! I must try something else to get that click" - no punishment from me because he moved off. I stand quietly and wait until he stops again. He stops. Click and treat. He stands still. Click and treat. He stands for 2 seconds - CT. He stands for 3 seconds - CT. He stands for 4 seconds - CT. He stands for 5 seconds - CT.

Now leave and give him a break for a few minutes. All that standing still was hard work. (in reality it took around 3-4 minutes). Go back in, work the same lesson. Build up to a horse that is standing there, on his own initiative (remember, not once have you signalled him to stand, you just rewarded him for doing it) for 30 seconds. A full minute. Three minutes. As long as you want.

Next, when he is standing still for the amount of time you want, pick up the saddle - OH! He moved away - he hates the saddle, he's not standing for that. Ok, no biggie. Just stand there with saddle in hand until he stops - CT. He's still standing, CT again. Still standing, CT again. Build up to him standing still with you holding the saddle for a good few minutes. Now move the saddle towards his back - he moves off. No biggie, do what you did last time. Wait until he stands, CT - now move the saddle SLOWER than you did before. If he moves off, wait until he stops and stands - and move it towards him SLOWER still. Split your problem into tiny managable chunks. Now he's standing while you move the saddle towards his back. He's happy, he's comfortable and he's doing it by choice - he doesn't HAVE to work for that reward after all. He's not going to get punished if he doesn't.

Next - place the saddle on his back and remove it. If he stands for this - CT. If he doesn't, do nothing, don't click, don't reward. Let him wander off. He comes back, you attempt again, you can see him just about to move off but he doesn't, CT. Now, as you have done for the previous steps, build up slowly until he is standing there while you put the saddle on, and take it off, as many times as you like.

Next is doing the girth - same baby steps as above.

Eventually the horse has learned to stand still to be saddled off his own bat. He's not going to get punished if he doesn't, he has a choice - he thinks standing still is all his own idea.

Now, that sounds very long winded and convoluted - and in a way it is. The reality of it is that it will probably only take half an hour to an hour of training over a period of time (how often you train is up to you) - quicker with a horse who doesn't actually have problem in the first place. Of course, depending on how severe the problem is, it could take days, weeks, months. There's no set rule on these things, you do have times when things go backwards - these are living, breathing, thinking animals. I don't have it in me to fight a horse over a problem like this (especially now that I'm pregnant). I am not good at full on pressure and release and round pen work (have done it with Kelly Marks; and I was fine, but I was never 100% confident doing it). I can't do the "tie him up, and make him bloody stand there!" routine. I'm no good at that. CT I can do. My horses like it, I like it - it's easy for us both.


This is how I approach all training - tiny baby steps, building up to established conditioned behaviours that I get when I ask for them, and not at any other time. So basically I'm aiming for the same thing that every horse owner aims for. I'll do some other problems from the horse above if people want, but the process is essentially the same. I probably wouldn't wait for the horse to offer lateral work, I'd ask for it using pressure from my finger (featherlight pressure) - when he moved away from the pressure (which they all do eventually) - click and treat. Build up as I did above. Within a very short space of time the horse will glide across the arena from a featherlight touch. Then you transfer it into ridden work. More on that later if wanted.

[Teegee]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoles
[QUOTE]Ebyss, when you're back I'd be interested to know what you would do with my small fella.. He's basically a spoilt brat (with no badness in him).

He walks around the stable when you're trying to get him tacked up (although he's got a lot better). If you have to hold him, he spends his time annoying you and pestering you for attention. He's completely immune to smacks and is fearless with humans! He is quite bolshy which I hate and although he's not too bad, I do like them to have manners.

He does make me laugh though, because he's so human in his reactions, he will knock things down or off if he thinks it will get your attention and annoy you! Even when I was standing him up for the judge on Sunday, he gave me a nip on the finger, just because he was pretty sure I couldn't do anything about it!

I was wondering whether I could do this to teach him to stand while I'm say putting on his boots, but knowing him I know that once you've given him one treat he will be standing on top of you looking for another one!

Quote: Ebyss


Ugh - I have this pony's twin brother. He's only 12.3 but he is SUCH a brat. He knows what he's supposed to do, but I have let him live the life of Reilly and not asked him to do any work. He's smart enough to know that that arrangement suits him VERY well thank you and feel no inclination to work for his supper. He nips, is bargy, bolshy, RUDE, and worst of all - afraid of nothing.

This is one of the main reasons punishment doesn't always work. With sensitive horses, usually one swift smack does the trick. With stubborn little ponies, all that happens is that they learn they can handle any amount of abuse you can throw at them. They know it won't hurt them in the long run - punishment has failed. I at one point considered the use of an airhorn to try and shock the behaviour out of him. I reckon all I would have achieved is a bombproofing session in airhorn tolerance.

Simple answer is that yes, clicker training will work with this type of horse. BUT. And it's a big one. It'll be a major PITA to do the initial work. Read on:

This is the biggest turn off for people suspicious of CT - bitey horses. I've heard "clicker training makes your horse bites because you're feeding him treats" more times than I care to remember. And that phrase is correct. Bear with me.

When you start out CT'ing the MOST important lesson you teach your horse (and it's usually the first lesson you teach) is the "no biting" or "no mugging" lesson. Who the hell wants to allow mugging behaviour?? It's annoying and dangerous - it's not acceptable. But as soon as you attempt your first CT lesson you can be guaranteed that your horse will be in your pockets looking for food. Normally people would just hit the horse away or growl or shout or whatever. A clicker trainer will (and this will horrify many of you) ignore the behaviour - and shock horror - allow it. Eventually you will probably get a nip in this first lesson. Again you ignore - WHY?

Ignoring unwanted behaviour is a major tenet of CT'ing because what you're doing is teaching the horse that mugging gets him nowhere. So you put up with the mooching in your pocket, you put up with the nip, you put up with the stamping foot - you stand quietly and ignore the horse. He is getting nothing from you, not even a response. The instant (and I do mean instant, timing is everything) he moves his head away you click and treat. He will be back in your pockets before you can say "clicker". A few more goes of ignoring the behaviour and rewarding him when he looks away should have the horse visibly turning his head and neck away from you all the while straining with his eyes and ears waiting for the click.

That is THE most important lesson. It's the most basic. And it's the one most people can't handle.

I should say here that if for any reason you feel the horse you're working with will be vicious or aggressive, then you clicker train over the stable door. Don't stand there and take a beating from the horse because that's what you've been told to do. Keep him at arms length so he can't bite and reward him for moving his head BACK over the stable door. What you're teaching here is that this aggressive horse must move away from you when you approach, and give you your space - only then will he get a treat.

People hate this part of CT'ing, and I fully understand that. I look at training from the scientific pov and so this mugging behaviour doesn't really worry me. I know it's part of the process and I know it goes away very quickly.

For bratty ponies you really have to have worked with a few other horses a bit to get into the swing of things. Bratty ponies are clever ponies and usually only too happy to work for food. But since they know that you can't hurt them, they will REALLY try it on. And they will try it on for much longer than a horse. So that's the starting point with brats - the no mugging game, and make sure they know it REALLY well. Once they know it, it should be plain sailing - they'll kill themselves trying to get you to click and treat. They'll offer behaviour when you don't want it (note to self - do not teach spanish walk to bratty ponies), they'll need frequent reminders of the no mugging game - but if you get them out the other side and working for you, man, there's no stopping them.

So, for your fella (who sounds better than my fella, who btw has had no CT work done with him since I am pregnant and on bed rest for complications) the main lessons would be:

No mugging
Backing up out of your space
Standing still
Control of feet (i.e. disengaging the HQ - control the feet, control the horse)
Matwork (you'd be amazed how effective matwork is - horses literally glue themselves to their mat, standing stock still, waiting for their treat).

But it will be more irritating to work with this kind of horse than say, a sensitive TB type, or a gentlemanlike draught type.

[Teegee]

All copied over now.

This is facinating Ebyss. Thank you.

[Ebyss]

No problem - I'll tackle the ridden training and also some more "how to get it very wrong with CT" in a while.

[xxkarenxx]

Oh that's a good idea Teegee I'm very interested in this :)

[wombles]

Ditto karen

[MountUp]

Fascinating - and more so as I will be taking courses based on the work by kahneman and tversky next month.

[Napoles]

That's brilliant Ebyss!! I am looking forward to having a go with him. He is still only four, so I think I have a good enough chance.

He really isn't that bad at all and to give him his due, he actually isn't a nipper - he nipped me when I was standing him up for the judge because I was holding a piece of grass to get him to prick his ears. Mind you, with him, he's clever enough to have done it out of frustration because he wasn't getting the grass!!:D

He was broken (very lightly) at two by the breeder precisely because he was a precocious character, and they wanted to make sure he was manageable. I got him just after that and left him off work for a while to mature. The person who broke him is very talented at his job and the horse is so good to ride - I know I can always trust him to behave himself, (apart from getting a bit strong in the jumping phase and thinking he knows best, but that's almost sorted) so he is in general a good boy and a lovely ride.

I'm going to have a go with these techniques and see how we get on. I think/ hope it should work with him - if I can get my timing right. Hopefully, I've been at this horsey game long enough to manage to read the signs quickly enough!! I'll keep you posted!

[Ebyss]

Ok - another long one.

Ridden work:

Essentially the process is the same. Baby steps. CT isn't particularly fluent for ridden work in the initial stages, it can be clunky and clumsy and people wonder what in God's name you're up to. But as usual there is method in the madness (and a little madness in the method, no harm there).

Let's say we're teaching forward movement off the leg. There are literally a tonne of ways you can do this using CT, but this is the most common way. First off, you've done lunging with your baby horse (I'm assuming a clean slate young horse for the sake of argument), you've got him used to the meaning of the whip, and also voice commands. When you're on board, it's as straightforward as you would imagine - a little closing of the legs, a "WALK ON!", a handler to move him forward with the whip; all done at the same time (this is important). The instant you get intent to move forward, not even movement forward, just intent - the horse leans forward to walk off, you feel a hindleg start to push, a foreleg is lifted; whatever the horse has done to initiate his forward movement - CLICK and treat! Excellent job, what a good horse! Build up from there. Get a step forward - CT. Get one whole stride - CT. Get 2 strides - CT. Work up to getting half a circuit of the arena - CT.

While that may sound like a very stilted way of teaching forward movement, actually what you've done is make it a really achievable goal for the horse. What's more, he understands exactly what your leg aids mean. You don't at any point need to ramp up the pressure and kick kick kick because you've taught him from the very first step to move off from feather light aids. You've also by default done 20 or 30 or 40 transitions in your 20 minute session. We all know transitions are the key to balanced, correct, gymnastic work. All in all the horse has had an enjoyable and rewarding first session where he has understood what has been asked of him. There were no fireworks, no shoving with the seat, no bang bang against his sides - you have just started to create a light, responsive, balanced youhg horse without really trying.

Now is the time to say that another key point of CT is that the "click" also signals the end of the behaviour. So the horse stops doing whatever he's doing when he hears the click. So that's a reward in and of itself too. This can create a few little "hiccups" in ridden work. Imagine the series of steps I set out for creating forward movement - now imagine how they would apply to canter work. Your young horse is building up to his first ridden canter. He understands leg aids mean forward movement, he understands the word "Canter!" and he understands the handler and whip on the groud. So he strikes off into a canter - and the immediate response from you is Click and treat. The horse grinds to a halt since he knows that's what the click means, and waits patiently for his treat. Though it seems counter intuitive, that is in fact exactly what you want. And that's how you build your canter work - grinding halts and everything. Not pretty, not correct, but it is effective and this phase is shortlived. It is just for teaching the horse what the canter aids mean, and what is expected of him in canter. Obviously, for baby horses, you won't be doing much canter initially, so this will be spread out over a period of days/weeks in short bursts. Again, due to the nature of the stop/start training you are doing a lot of transitions which build a better transition. But I'm not going to pretend that this is good canterwork. Grinding to a halt isn't comfortable for the rider and it's not good for the horse. Thankfully most horses aren't stupid and come to a respectable halt, not a "throw you onto his neck every time" halt.

Moving on from this very basic work you get into the good stuff - lateral work, performance enhancement, precision training and so on. You can see that CT can be used to literally teach anything once you understand the basic principles - how you, the trainer, actually communicate what you want the horse to learn is up to you. You can still beat the crap out of the horse and then CT him when he gets it right. It will no longer be positive reinforcement work, but it will have the desired effect - the horse will learn alright, but it will be a bloody miserable experience for him.

[Ebyss]

Some links to websites, articles and videos:

http://www.theclickercenter.com/
http://www.clickryder.com/
http://www.equineclickertraining.com/
http://www.clickertraining.com/horsetraining

The last link above is Karen Pryor's website - someone mentioned "Don't Shoot The Dog" earlier... that is essential reading for CT fans, and a great introduction to the overall concepts, even though it doesn't talk about CT and horses per se. The first article on that page is called "Bad Bob" and it details Karen's visit to Festina Lente riding school in Bray, Co. Wicklow. They use quite a bit of CT since they do RDA work (positive reinforcement is a commonly used behaviour modification technique in children with learning difficulties, so it combines well with Festina's ethos).

You'll see a lot of "trick" work from clicker trainers - there are reasons for this, I'll go into them later. There are also videos on you tube - I would personally take most of these with a pinch of salt. Honestly, in some of them the horses are so damn bored and overtrained by their enthusiastic but well meaning trainers that it's just a turn off. As always; the method is sound but the trainer might be a moron.

[xxkarenxx]

Thanks Ebyss! I will certainly look at them when I'm back later on :nod:

[Ebyss]

Clicker training and tricks.

We clicker trainers have a habit of teaching tricks to our horses - plenty of reasons for this:

Often people come to clicker training because their horse has been put on box rest for X months and it's bored out of it's mind. Since you can't do "normal" ridden work or lunging, and since these horses usually understand basic concepts like standing still for grooming and picking up feet, you're left trying to find something, anything, to amuse these horses. Trick training is a great way to exercise their brain. So we do tricks like targetting, fetch, matwork, happy faces, "yes and no" etc etc etc - the sky's the limit really.

Some tricks are actually lessons in disguise - head down is a "trick" many people teach. It's cute, the horse puts it's head down to the ground and leaves it there until you say otherwise. A fairly pointless sounding trick until you realise that when a horse's head is in this position it's heartrate drops, endorphins kick in and the animal relaxes. This is true for most long necked herbivores since they only graze when they are comfortable and relaxed. A horse on high alert has his head up and ears pricked, a horse who is relaxed has it's head down. For animals you sometimes can't separate the physiological response from the emotional response - what you see is what you get essentially. Although some horses can be "actors" and make faces they don't mean, there is no real separation of the physical and emotional. So head down is a really useful tool for nervous animals. Some clicker trainers have found that particularly anxious horses will lower their heads by themselves, and not lift it up until they've relaxed, on their own initiative. In other words, the horse has learned how to conciously relax himself in a scary situation. There's one girl with a horse with vision issues who does this on a regular basis. If he gets worried he wants to do matwork and headdown work - and literally stands there with his nose to the floor until he feels comfortable enough to get back to work. He does this on windy days more I believe. Other "tricks" in disguise are fetch, matwork, spanish walk, bowing, targetting... there are tonnes more.

Some of us just enjoy the process of learning to teach our horses something brand new, and some of us just enjoy watching our horses learn something brand new. The interaction and quality time spent together make the tricks worthwhile lessons.

They're good "breather" lessons - they get away from serious work and allow both trainer and horse to relax and have a bit of fun without actually focusing on the end result, which all to often happens when you're doing performance enhancement.

Some tricks are great at teaching the horse to generalise concepts and to problem solve on their own.

For young horses not ready for riding work, tricks are a great way to introduce the horse to the concept of learning new behaviours.

Some tricks are not tricks at all, but since they're not used by English riders on a regular basis, it is assumed they're tricks. Actually, other disciplines use them heavily and thus they become necessary behaviours for the horse to learn. Stunt riders, police horses and classical dressage riders come to mind here.

Some people teach tricks because they like to show off with their horse - probably not the best reason, but we all like to show off from time to time.

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

Hi Ebyss really interesting stuff! do you need a proper 'clicker' to do this or will anything that makes a 'click' noise do? also are there any very basic stuff that we can try at home? Id love to try it with my horse she knew 'say please' when I got her and I have taught her things like to stand and stay on command and to go through the yard and into her stable on command so I reckon she would respond well through CT shes v quick to learn!

[Ebyss]

You don't need a proper clicker, but they are extremely useful in the beginning. They cost only a few quid and you can usually get them in pet shops for dog training. The reason they're good in the beginning is that they sound unlike anything the horse is previously familiar with, and they also make it easier for you the trainer to be exacting in your timing. But they are not necessary. I use a tongue "clock", pressing my tongue to the roof of my mouth and making a clock sound as I bring it down to the bottom of my mouth. It's different to the "click click click" you would use to get your horse moving since he already knows what that means and it would confuse him.

I have a few clickers lying around if you want me to send you one?

Basic stuff - the best first lesson you can do is targetting. This is often recommended as a first lesson because it's something the horse has never done before. It's not something we routinely do with our horses, so it's new and you can really see how the learning process works.

Basically, you choose an item from around the house that is large enough for the horse to see and comfortable for you to hold. It's best if it doesn't make any noise, like a crinkly bag. A tennis ball, teddy bear, drinks bottle... any of these will do. Hold it up in front of your horse and the instant his nose touches the bottle, click and then treat. Initially get the first few "clicks and treats" very close to each other, but then you can wait a second or two before presenting the treat. You'll feel all fingers and thumbs at this point, that's normal. Try and get an easy to access pocket for your treats, but one your horse can't easily get into - bumbags, though hideously unattractive, are great for this.

Be prepared for lots of mugging behaviour - ignore it, stand still and keep presenting the target to where the horse can easily reach it. When they get bored of mugging you and touch the target again, click and treat. Do this again and again until the horse realises what you're up to - you're asking him to touch the target. If you're getting it on a consistent basis, then leave the stable for a bit and do something else.

Go back in - if you feel the mugging is still a problem, now is the time to fix it. So stand there and assume the horse is going to mug you. Ignore the behaviour. When the horse moves it's head away, click and treat. Repeat over and over until you're getting consistent and deliberate "head away". Leave the horse for a bit.

Now go back in with the target and do that lesson again. Depending on how quick your horse is catching on, you can start to move the target around a bit, higher, lower etc. Expect a fall off in performance when you change the criteria (i.e. when you move the position of the target) - the horse will initially be confused. They will eventually touch the target again - click and reward. Be patient and allow them to feel frustrated, this is the beginning of teaching problem solving and generalising behaviour that we normally inhibit in our horses (think of all those Warmbloods who need to be shown every little thing over and over versus the clever Irish horse with a fifth leg who knows how to get himself out of trouble).

Beyond that, the sky really is the limit - or rather, your imagination is. You can teach anything you want. Clickryder has some great training ideas, so flick through that website for something that appeals to you. It sounds like your horse understands your requests as it is, so she should find this easy. It's you that will find it a bit of a muddle in the beginning, as all of us do.

Read some of the clicker centre articles in the links above - there are beginner articles there that go through some of the basic dos and don'ts of CT.

[Napoles]

Well I made a start with small fella last night - just trying to teach him to erm well, stand and stay - a bit like a dog and I think it started to sink in.

To be fair I think I was a bit harsh on him as he's really quite a sweet little horse. He was pretty much standing where he was told without being tied or held while he was being washed down after riding so maybe it's starting to work!? The only thing I did do that I know I'm not supposed to, was make a cross 'Ah ah' sound when he moved. That seemed to reinforce the message for him, but I'm sure it's very much against the rules! :)

I used a tongue clock like Ebyss and just gave him a single nut as a treat each time. Will keep going anyway and see how we go. :)

[Teegee]

Will be great to hear how it goes on Napoles.

Pinning this thread so it doesn't get lost.

[Ebyss]

The only thing I did do that I know I'm not supposed to, was make a cross 'Ah ah' sound when he moved. That seemed to reinforce the message for him, but I'm sure it's very much against the rules

If you're getting pedantic, then yes, it is against the rules and so is giving a cue for anything you haven't trained a cue for - but that is strict positive reinforcement, and though I would use is occasionally for very specific things, like microshaping, I think it's best left in the lab and a combination of approaches used in the real world.

I also use an "ah ah" for things I feel are out of order - plus I think it's a handy thing for the horse to learn, a "no" signal is a great help when you're out and about and the horse is thinking about sticking his nose into what looks like a bucket of sugar beet but is actually black paint - who wants that on their nose? Pain in the bum to get off, best to avoid it and if the horse understands "ah ah" and stays away from it then wasn't that worth teaching?

What you have to be careful of is that you only use it for behaviour that you never want, like biting etc. If you're just using it when he's offering unwanted (but not bad) behaviour then you're discouraging him from trying something new. That is fundamental for later work when you will be asking the horse for something he just has never done before, and has no earthly idea what you want him to do - the point is that he will try a dozen different behaviours for you until he gets the right one. You want to encourage that "creativity" and not stifle it. So if your boy is getting an "ah ah" for just moving a bit, I would not bother with the "ah ah" and I would let him move - he will get what you want eventually, and you won't be teaching him that movement is wrong (you will need movement later of course). If however he's pestering you or mugging or nipping, then I see nothing wrong with an "ah ah" since you never want that behaviour in the future.

A smack at this stage will just sour the whole experience, and is probably unnecessary for young horse training.

A tongue clock and just one nut is perfect - many people just love giving treats and feed them bags of carrots etc. I'm afraid I'm in the stingy group and feed only on nut or even, when I'm watching weight, a pinch of low molasses chaff. I pretty much trained the young stallion on chaff alone until he got bored with the chaff and I mixed things up a bit.

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

You don't need a proper clicker, but they are extremely useful in the beginning. They cost only a few quid and you can usually get them in pet shops for dog training. The reason they're good in the beginning is that they sound unlike anything the horse is previously familiar with, and they also make it easier for you the trainer to be exacting in your timing. But they are not necessary. I use a tongue "clock", pressing my tongue to the roof of my mouth and making a clock sound as I bring it down to the bottom of my mouth. It's different to the "click click click" you would use to get your horse moving since he already knows what that means and it would confuse him.

I have a few clickers lying around if you want me to send you one?

Basic stuff - the best first lesson you can do is targetting. This is often recommended as a first lesson because it's something the horse has never done before. It's not something we routinely do with our horses, so it's new and you can really see how the learning process works.

Basically, you choose an item from around the house that is large enough for the horse to see and comfortable for you to hold. It's best if it doesn't make any noise, like a crinkly bag. A tennis ball, teddy bear, drinks bottle... any of these will do. Hold it up in front of your horse and the instant his nose touches the bottle, click and then treat. Initially get the first few "clicks and treats" very close to each other, but then you can wait a second or two before presenting the treat. You'll feel all fingers and thumbs at this point, that's normal. Try and get an easy to access pocket for your treats, but one your horse can't easily get into - bumbags, though hideously unattractive, are great for this.

Be prepared for lots of mugging behaviour - ignore it, stand still and keep presenting the target to where the horse can easily reach it. When they get bored of mugging you and touch the target again, click and treat. Do this again and again until the horse realises what you're up to - you're asking him to touch the target. If you're getting it on a consistent basis, then leave the stable for a bit and do something else.

Go back in - if you feel the mugging is still a problem, now is the time to fix it. So stand there and assume the horse is going to mug you. Ignore the behaviour. When the horse moves it's head away, click and treat. Repeat over and over until you're getting consistent and deliberate "head away". Leave the horse for a bit.

Now go back in with the target and do that lesson again. Depending on how quick your horse is catching on, you can start to move the target around a bit, higher, lower etc. Expect a fall off in performance when you change the criteria (i.e. when you move the position of the target) - the horse will initially be confused. They will eventually touch the target again - click and reward. Be patient and allow them to feel frustrated, this is the beginning of teaching problem solving and generalising behaviour that we normally inhibit in our horses (think of all those Warmbloods who need to be shown every little thing over and over versus the clever Irish horse with a fifth leg who knows how to get himself out of trouble).

Beyond that, the sky really is the limit - or rather, your imagination is. You can teach anything you want. Clickryder has some great training ideas, so flick through that website for something that appeals to you. It sounds like your horse understands your requests as it is, so she should find this easy. It's you that will find it a bit of a muddle in the beginning, as all of us do.

Read some of the clicker centre articles in the links above - there are beginner articles there that go through some of the basic dos and don'ts of CT.


brilliant thank you im so going to bring something from the house tonight and have a go at this :dance: lol knowing siog she will try eat it!

[Alibear]

Saw this on DoneDeal - http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/horses/854737


Clicker Training Clinic -with Mary Concannon

24th and 25th Jan at Marlton Stud, Wicklow

At this introductory clinic you will learn how clicker training can offer us an exciting new way to interact and communicate with our horses.

What is clicker training?

Clicker training uses a "yes answer" signal to tell your horse when he has done something right. It pairs that "yes answer" with a reward, so he is encouraged to repeat that good behaviour again. Clicker training is a positive training method that creates happy, enthusiastic, what-can-I-do-for-you horses.

-everyone who attends is a full participant in the clinic, whether they have a horse with them or not.

-Cost: which includes lunches,teas and coffees and treats for the horses!

€90 for participants with a horse for the 2 days

€120 for participants without a horse for 2 days

For booking and further details contact Laura on XXXXXXXXX

For more information on clicker training visit www.theclickercenter.com