Who 'uses' natural horsemanship?

[KainerAndJenny]

I have never been able to touch kainers back legs, and if attemped he will kick. I have tried many ways that i have been told "will work" and none of them have. I have not studied natural horsemanship but am interested.
I was given advice today, from someone who uses NH with all his horses. He told me i need to change my whole approach and told me exactly what should work.
Who agrees that NH will always work? Who has tried NH and has failed? Who has a success story? And who is too sceptical to try?
Just interested!! :dance:

(A similar thread was put on another forum and the mix of reaction was incredible!)

[Ashlingm]

im always open to try new things, different things work for different horses so I try go for what ever makes the horse happy and confortable. I dont really get why some people are so anti-NH...yea there are a few people to put a bad name on it. but u get that in everything...

[Teegee]

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page to "similar threads" - you will find quite a few NH threads on the forum.

[Welsh Girl]

Mmm yes a contentious issue on some boards....:sniggers:

I always wonder where the term "Natural Horsemanship" came from for a start. A lot of what I have seen lads such as Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli do I have also seen done by trainers in other areas of horsemanship. Many of the techniques of training that these lads in particular use and call "Natural" have been practiced by horsemen for hundreds of years.

The horsemanship that my friend practices is actually called Vaquera and can trace its roots back through the Spanish to the Moors, that is centuries old. Horsemen such as Tom and Bill Dorrence that Parelli calls his inspiration are actually Vaquera horsemen.

ETA I think there are two main types of horsemanship: Good Horsemanship and Bad Horsemanship, and practitioners of both can be found under many headings. I have seen some very good Natural Horsemanship trainers and some have sent me running to the hills. But then that occurs in all disciplines.

[EK2008]

Mmm yes a contentious issue on some boards....:sniggers:

ETA I think there are two main types of horsemanship: Good Horsemanship and Bad Horsemanship, and practitioners of both can be found under many headings. I have seen some very good Natural Horsemanship trainers and some have sent me running to the hills. But then that occurs in all disciplines.

Hi Kainerandjenny

I agree here with welshgirl people see so many things on TV nowadays and it looks great BUT the major things dont happen until you have the small things in place first.
I have practised NH or whatever term you would like to call it for over two and half years now.

One of the most important things you as a person handling a horse needs to perfect is release of pressure- by this i mean physical pressure (pressure by your hand on a rope ) and after asking a horse to do something . I know you have heard all this on the parelli stuff on tv but just watch a lead horse come in to drink water and move every other horse out of the way (remote pressure)with just his presence.
Humans need to perfect this and this will never happpen as we are not animals and now matter how much we study horse behaviour and movement we will get close but not to perfection as there will always be some cues etc we will miss.

Getting back to the topic of your horse kicking i have worked with totally unhandled ponies never seen humans until we drifted them into a small area. With these ponies they have never had contact with humans so some of them will try everything to get away. They will buck rear plunge try to escape and this is the traumatic part but then they do realise they are getting no reaction from their antics so they eventually stop. (Im cutting the story short here to get to your point )
Right so then after using a lot of techniques in gaining pony s trust,getting closer to the pony we use an extedended arm ( a glove on a stick) Ok touching the pony all overneck down legs hooves ok onto the hind legs.
So this sometimes is a contenctious issue - BUT you have a lengthened arm so as we know a horses legs are their way of escape and they sometimes are very reluctant to let humans ( predators) touch let alone pick up their feet ( would you give a stranger away your car if you were in a unfamilar place?)

Right so by using the extended arm rubbing the stick down his legs if the pony kicks by saying get away get off my legs keep the Pressure of the extended arm on the ponys leg.
They will keep trying to push the stick away by kicking but soon they will learn my god this is hard work kicking is getting me no where. They may stop or they may try some more things such as running away backwards etc
Ok so you could call the kicking trashing around etc "The Storm " but there is always a calm after the storm so we need to notice the " calm" which usually is a moment of acceptance where the pony goes ok this aint too bad at this split second we need to take the pressure away so take the stick away. Then go back again try again same thing if there is calm release pressure.
I had contact with a mare once who was the type who would turn and kick (a fight type) where another horse would turn and run (flight) so you know your horse more than anyone so suss out her personality .
You may need to do some work with an extended arm but make sure she is used to it on other body parts first before you head to the hind legs as if she has been owned by someone else or you do not know her history you may spark a bad memory.

This above techique is not A NH method strictly people have used this with horses for years
I think the term NH has been totally blown out of proportion as there are people who have horses and seem to detest anyone or anything to do with NH & then there are people involved in NH who have their own opinions about more traditional methods and cringe at people who ride their horses in tack bits martingales etc.

I work away on my own horses and i have seen tremondous results with one in particular and he now looks to me for guidance - another days story
The feeling you get is undescribable and there is something there that is hard to explain.
Now im not sayng that people who do not practice any NH techniques do not have this with thier horses Possibly they do but i achieved this relationship with my horses through NH .

However i am not into "all natural" my horses have shoes they live in during night at winter out during day and out all day&night in summer. I keep them in 3-5 acre fields and i use saddle bridle bit martingale when necessary and i carry a whip as my horse has a tendancy to runout through right shoulder so just one quck tip on that shoulder keeps him on the straight & narrow (literally)


There are plenty of good horsemen out there & i had the joy of chatting with one in the pub after a days hunting this week who have great methods and have great ways with horses some of these people have seem to gotten a bit lost in the midst of the last few years . But there are many good horse men and women and many bad ones just like humans car dealers etc ect.
Its like people criticising you for using a certain bit or piece of equipment
Its not the equipment its the hands at the end of the equipment which causes problem s

I hope this helps time and patience is a great thing it will not happen over night & it does depend on how much human imprint has is on your horse before you got her. It could be great human imprint good or not soo good!

[KainerAndJenny]

Wow , thank you so much for your lengthy reply. It was very informative and interesting! And, yes, unfortunaltely the human imprint left in Kainer by previous people was not a good one :rant:

Again, :thankyou:

:clap:

[EK2008]

No bother i think if you mean well and have good intent in your mind and in your body language you will be successful with your horse
Good luck with those hind feet lifts . Get your horse used to a soft rope place it over her back down her front legs and around her neck walk away swing it if she shows a reaction keep going make her believe the rope swinging has nothing to do with her. with you on her left side swing rope on her right side.
Drop it over her back from the lest drop it over her back from the right.
What you are doing is showing her its just a rope a rope with no intent you do not intend to hit her with it so its just like an addittion to yourself . A horse who is scared of a whip will not usually jump or run away if they see a whip on the ground that whip only becomes feared when it is in a humans hand the same with a rope . If you relax andhave no intent in your body she will begin to relax.

if your horse can tolerate a soft rope around her legs (be careful as sometimes a rope can spark bad memories being hit with one or a horse who may have been tethered by one ) But slide the rope around her hind leg up high make sure your horses head is flexed towards you as when the horse is in this shape it is very hard for her to kick so if you at her near hind even get a helper to flex her neck left for you .
Slide the rope up around where the leg strap of a rope would go and gentlly manouvre the rope forward& back moving the rope down her leg if she starts moving keep going and the MINUTE she shows ANY sign of relaxation stop so By doing this she will begin to learn because if you pull away when she is moving she will learn that if she moves human goes away

Over time slide rope down the leg until it rests in the area behind the pastern bone Now with your horse flexed around to you again ( all this time she does not need to be flexed) around but as you said she is a kicker so you now need flexion once more when you ask for the foot to be picked up. At this moment while you are working around the hind legs Breathe in and take a big sigh out this will help you relax and mad as it seems you may find your horse takes a big breath out also as remember you have an agenda -Picking up the horses feet But your horse has not got an idea what you are doing as you said she is quite difficult and had not been treated kindly before .
So now just ask with a small bit of pressure say a word that you wil use in future like "up" "lift" or what ever que you will use when picking up feet.
Now do not expect miracles at all maybe today you will get the horse giving you by taking her heel off the ground - tomorrow you may get a lift for a second etc.
Now once you get a release of pressure from the horse you release your pressure on the rope and gently place the foot back down ask again you may get the same again or a bit more.
Ok so if she kicks out or if she lifts her hind leg up real high keep the rope there dont let her snatch the rope away if there is a moment of chaos stay with her if she takes off walking around stay with her remember all you are asking for is a lift of her foot so once you get that release. If you panic at all she will do the same . But if you or a helper keeps the flexion in her neck it will be easier on you.
You neednt release rope each time from around her leg just release the amount of pressure on rope.
Do the same on the other side.
Now remember one side will be worse than the other some horses cannot tolerate any one down their right hand side and be care full as you are starting TOTALLY new on this side do not presume she will be comfortable on the off side as you have just finished the near side. Treat it as starting from the very start again. Breathe again and be aware of your heart beat (mad as i may seem it has a great affect if you are up to 90 you horse will wonder what the problem is ? Is there danger lurking??) If you are nervous walk away come back after a few minutes do not do this work when you are rushed as it will fall apart real quick.


Take your time this will take a while but it will be well worth it in the end within a short time you will be able to pick up her legs with a rope and only then once she is comfortable with you at her hind legs will you be able to go in there and pick up a hind leg.
But once you have the head and neck flexed around to you it makes it easier for her not to kick out.
If you feel you are not getting anywhere with the rope go back to hand on stick and spend a lot more time here building up trust remembering to get her used to the hand on stick all over her body on both sides first if she shows signs if discomfort go back to an area where she is comfortable with you. this method is called advance& retreat.

God i have gone on a bit.!!!
Let us know how you get on !!:)