Join up demo report

[Guenhwyfar]

Last night in callaighstown the join up demonstration was given by Caroline Jennings. She has just finished the four year course to be a quailified instructor in the Monty Roberts method.

Two horses, a mare and gelding, were donated for use by callaighstown. the joinup process took place in a metal grid fencing pen.

Join up is about creating a 50/50 bond with your horse, where you are the dominant mare to your herd relationship. it is about gaining trust, but also making the horse aware of your personal space. it teaches a horse to easily back up just from your body language.

The join up process begins with bringing your horse into the center of the ring. stand the horse, do not allow them stand in your personal space, back them up until the respect this. the reward is a rub between the eyes, also reassurance as horses cannot see here. turn the horse 90degress making sure they respect, back them up they move too close to you, and reward, turn again 90degrees repeat reward, do this until you return to your original starting position.

next unclip the horse, and move backwards parrallel to your horse and send them out. you decide the speed the horse takes but do not let them stop. walk in step with the speed of the horses hip. and send them on for apprximately 5-6 laps of a 25-30m(presuming this distance from dimension of pen). this is the horses natural flight distance. vary the speed to know you are in control. Stand square and keep eye contact with the horse for the duration of the distance. (this distance is not always necessary, she below for signs as when to ask for join up)

Turn the horse, by stepping forward to the front of the horse and force and outside turn. this turning to the outside encourages trust as you are out of the horses sight for a second while they turn. so when they see you again they know your not going to eat them up.

the signs to look outs for are;

1. ear locked on you, this means they are paying attention to you.

2. chewing and licking, a sign of relaxation and also a im a herbivore dont hurt me.

3. smaller circles intowards you

4. lowering of the head.

when these signs appear, as the horse is moving turn away, round shoulders and avert eye contact, horses should approach, come a step or two or turn in. if they do not come in make arches around them while walking to encourge them to come you. if resistant, make them walk a step or two and walk on to see if the they follow. all the time shoulders round, eyes averted.

a figure of 8 is a good way to ensure join up has happened.

the two horses last night were only slightly problematic only because obviously they were well handled and treated, and were more interested in droppings and the door. join up did though take place with both, taking around half an hour for each.

Caroline nevers use a lunge whip but the lunge line to urge a horse on by making noise, slaping in, kicking sand etc.

A biter for a horse can be dealt with by, with correct timing, a tap to the leg when they go to bite. DO NOT KICK THE HORSE. horses legs are sacred as they need them to run, an association with biting and a tap on the legs after a while will cease the biting. but correct timing and patience is required.

She will be working with the two today, joining up again and then putting their first bridle saddle and lunge line. we will be posted videos of this.

i found it a very imformative evening and very helpful even for older horses, it teaches respest, understanding and trust. im going to try it out one of the days when i can set up a ring with wings and poles.

HS and karnon, please feel free to amend or add onto

oh and karnons Sandy is amazing, shes so sweet and soft, ive fallen for her big time :blushing:

[bob1984]

Great Report G - sounds like you got alot out of it :dance:

[High_Stepper]

Yep Sandy is lovely :) She's so soft!

Good report G.

my take on it was.. oh i will sound like a kiljoy but i felt it was a bit bland. Something was missing, charisma?? :blushing: There were a couple of things i thought were odd.

Was pleasantly surprised to realise I do this stuff it's how I handle my horse daily, sending away, backing him up with signals, moving him forward and back also while i stand at his shoulder, working on his attention and keeping him chilled. It is the same yet different - a case of 'how many ways to skin a cat'.

I'm sure she's a good future ahead of her. It can't be easy to do a demo in a fishbowl.

I must try that outside turn :)

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

Was pleasantly surprised to realise I do this stuff it's how I handle my horse daily, sending away, backing him up with signals, moving him forward and back also while i stand at his shoulder, working on his attention and keeping him chilled. It is the same yet different - a case of 'how many ways to skin a cat'.



:nod: me too HS a lot of what I do is described as natural horsemanship but to me its not its just a combination of what I was thought to do and how I just do things.
I did join up with siog without knowing it was called that. she is great fun to do groundwork with she will follow me around like a dog and loves to get to run about :D

Glad you all enjoyed the night. I was not able to get up myself would have liked to have gotten a few pics for the region PR. Hope you werent too cold!

[Karnon316]

Ok so here is my report it is probably the same but spent adges trying to type with the boss in the office annoying me about what type of bisuits to have in the meetings next week so I'm sending it anyway .

Join up report with Caroline Jennings

I had watched a few Monty Roberts programmes on horse and country tv, so I had an idea what to expect . I also read one of his books a few weeks ago about his favourite horses that he has dealt with in his life .

Ok I arrived a few minutes late ( I was down having dinner in the Poitin with the girls from the yard :sniggers: )

It was in an indoor arena 20m X 40m

And a round pen was set up in the centre at the arena markings E & B . It was smaller than 20m in diameter so the helpers could walk on both sides of the pen .

The attendees sat in a semi circle around one side of the pen and the other side of the pen was the gate so the horses could come into the arena and into the pen without having to go by the people sitting down.

So when I arrived in she had her assistant in the arena pretending to be a horse . She had her assistant run around the outside of the pen and demonstrates what body language the horse should show and approximately at what stages it should happen approx .
• Licking and chewing
• Ear pointing towards you so they are watching you
• Dropping the head
• Small circle moving towards the person in the centre ( as they start to want to be closer to you )

Grainne Sugars supplied the horses for the demonstration . They were 2 year olds ( one mare and one gelding ) that were learning to lead.

1- Horse lead in

So firstly the mare was lead in by an assistant and Caroline watched as the mare was led around. She then brought the mare into the centre to her .

2 – Horse Backs up

The mare had been standing nearly on top of her and Caroline’s asked the horse to take a few steps back . Caroline’s reasoning to get the mare to step back was that the mare was made uncomfortable so that she associated being uncomfortable with being on top of her handler ( I think she called it her personal space rather than being on top ) . Also a lot of horses are never taught to back up and would easier rear than back up so it is best to get this shown early .

3 – Horse gets a rub

As a treat for behaving the horse gets a rub on his head ( between the eyes ) without making eye contact

4 – Horse is moved again

Caroline walked the horse a few steps and halted. If the horse stopped and stood in it’s own space and not crowded Caroline the horse gets another reward. If not back to backing up . This process was continued for a couple of times until the horse understands what is expected .

5 - Horse let loose

The lunge line was unclipped from the Dually halter ( the halter that Monty designed and sells) and the horse is asked to move out . As the pen is circular it is like lunging but instead of the triangle (where the horse lunge line and lunge stick are the 3 sides) your body is the lunge stick (Caroline never uses lunge sticks as there are many other aids like clicking, kicking sand, stamping your foot, throwing the lunge line and smacking the lunge line off your body). So Caroline is in control of the speed and direction.

6 – Horse changes direction

After the horse has ran in one direction for about 5 laps Caroline changed her position from where the lunge line would be to being in front of the lunge line this was to make the horse slow down, stop and change direction. What she wanted was the horse to make a bend to the outside to change direction so that the horse was exposing his back end (where the horse cannot see) so that the horse would then know that Caroline didn’t harm them when they were venerable. She also gets to see if the horse is stiffer on one side than the other as most horses are right handed ( I think that is what she said )

7 – Horse shows the signs

The horse will start ( If they are not already ) to show the signs as explained earlier
• Licking and chewing
• Ear pointing towards you so they are watching you
• Dropping the head
• Small circle moving towards the person in the centre ( as they start to want to be closer to you )

8 – Move closer

Once the horse had demonstrated the signs Caroline’s posture changed and went from being dominant to more relaxed she dropped her shoulders from being square and no direct eye contact at this stage the horse should make a few steps towards Caroline ( provided that the horse has stayed focused on her .
If the horse hasn’t taken the body language as an invitation to move closer Caroline weaved in a semi circle closer and slowly to the horse ( again without eye contact ) to encourage them to move to her .
If the horse is still a bit confused as to what is being asked she takes hold of the halter and coaxes them to walk with her for a few steps. Keeping her body language relaxed and still no eye contact.

9 – Walk on

As the horse now wants to be with Caroline she starts to walk the circle of the pen and the horse following. Then change the rein to see if the horse is following .

If this is all successful you have “ joined up”



If the horse looses concentration send them back to step 5 and continue on from there again
(this happened with the second horse on the night )

Her other notes were
Don’t feed from hand as it encourages biting
And if you have a horse that bites give it a quick tap with your foot ( not a kick ) every time it tries to bite you. As they are flight animals they don’t want their legs injured and will associate a tap on the leg with biting . It will require good timing and up to 6 weeks but it works .

She will be back in the yard today to continue on ( hoping to put on bridles and saddles and walking on plastic bags and stuff ). So I’ll find out from the girls in the yard how she went.

I found it a bit slow and didn’t get much from it . But I’ll tell you more on it tomorrow once I have a chat with the girls .

I also met Clonin and Red Mimosa ( who I know already ) Red Mimosa sorry I didn’t get a chance to talk to you .

I also met Guenhwyfar and High Stepper (high Stepper played it real cool and wore a different colour jacket so she could decide if she wanted to talk to us first :sniggers: ) . So that is my first meeting with any of the S2S gang and they were both really nice and really friendly. VERY NICE TO MEET YOU LADIES .

And they got to meet Sandy :D

Anyway work finished at 5 and I’m still here so sending this and I’m heading off to see Sandy . I’ll give you the rest of the update tomorrow .

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

brilliant reports guys

[High_Stepper]

Ok so

I also met Guenhwyfar and High Stepper (high Stepper played it real cool and wore a different colour jacket so she could decide if she wanted to talk to us first :sniggers: ) . So that is my first meeting with any of the S2S gang and they were both really nice and really friendly. VERY NICE TO MEET YOU LADIES .


Sandy is lovely - was great to meet you too Karnon, wife of Darth Vadar :D

[Guenhwyfar]

wife of Darth Vadar :D

:rofl:

[Karnon316]

Ok so I went around and asked a few of the girls about the update on day 2 .

The mare that was in the demo pulled out of the stable lame so she was left alone and no more done on her .

The gelding was continued on with and on day 2 had bridle , saddle and a rider on his back being led in VERY small circles . He also got to meet some plastic bags .

The girls said that with the smaller amount of people watching she was much more confident and in control of the situation .


( However at one stage it is suspected that she cried with frustraction that the horse wasn't doing what she wanted )

But 2 days and has a rider on his back is good going :nod:

[ell]

If anyone is kind of interested, every now and again I fly over to England to watch some advanced stuff when international trainers who have been recommend to me by friends come over to visit. These trainers are pretty much bloody incredible regarding their experience and skillset and ability to train a horse. Anyway, the guy I went over to see this weekend was Honza Blaha, I'm half way through trying to write the whole weekend down on paper. Here's Honza :)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/inhs_photos/honza.jpg

There was also a clicker trained sheep who jumped crosspoles who invaded the arena at one stage.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/inhs_photos/sheep2.jpg

[moongirl]

I am pleased to see a positive response from some of you guys on 'join up'. I was 'nt sure what people would think of it in Ireland. :clap:

I am in training for the 'Monty Roberts preliminary certificate in horsemanship' with Kelly Marks at 'Intelligent Horsemanship' in the UK. At the end of stage one I have to do 10 'join ups' with 10 different horses for my assesment, and I was wondering how I would find enough people to let me loose on their horses. Maybe there are some of you on here who would like it done on yours. I will be needing horses after April / May so I might ask on here for volunteers ! :lol:

[High_Stepper]

Moongirl you are welcome to play with my horse for your join up when you need a horse.

Ell - nice piccie! Looking forward to the report :D

[termoncarragh]

Likewise Moongirl .... my spooky pony has done a little bit of join-up with a very inexperienced student (me!!) and is very responsive to even my clunky attempts at body language ... I'd love to see him with someone who knows what they're doing!

I love the way Kelly Marks writes and find her books really brilliant - would love to read a report of some of your lessons with her if you had time at some stage....

[xxkarenxx]

Very detailed report G and Karnon. The only thing that really concerns me is a horse being ridden after 2 days. That, in my book does not equate to good horsemanship. No horse can possibly be ready and accepting of a rider after such a short time. Sorry I don't mean to argue about what seems to have been an interesting time.

[Bip]

Have to agree with Karen, and Ive seen Caroline work with horses in our yard and I think she is great, but I think when it comes to actually sitting on a horse the best results are achieved by repetition and patience rather than overnight

[moongirl]

Thanks HS and TC that will be great. I will let you know when i'm looking for horses.


I think a lot of people don't understand that 'Join up' is just the very start of the training and bonding process with horses. It is mostly done when starting young horses or with abused or problem horses for example that can't get caught ( but it can be done to any horse to create more of a bond ).

It is done to establish trust, respect and create a bond so that when we come to backing the horse or helping to overcome problems, we have the horses co-operation and willingness to work with us.

The Join up described by G and Karnon is just the start. ( Im sure the horse was just backed and led around as in any backing process - not ridden properly ). After this there will be hours and hours of groundwork and training before being ridden properly. If you read any of Kelly Marks books you will see there are loads of ground work lessons and exercises. Patience, practice and repetition are always reccommended.

I find it really sad that when people hear "Monty Roberts" all they can think of is Join up - the same as when they hear " Pat Parelli" all they can think of is carrot stick ! There is a lot more to it than that. All these trainers spend hours gently and slowly training their horses.

This is the whole point of any Natural Horsemanship - to take things slowly and gradually to avoid problems in the long term, rather than rushing things to get them done quickly but then maybe get problems later.

Quote' from Montys book 'Join Up'

"During Join-Up I never force the saddle or bridle on the horse - instead I provide an environment in which the horse willingly decides to allow itself to be saddled and eventually ridden. The horse takes responsibility for its actions and the whole process is both more effective, speedier and more positive than that used by traditional horsemen. ... Choice is equally as important to human beings...." (p.197)

"It seemed to me, as I watched my father and other traditional horse trainers work, that their entire focus was on telling the horse that he had no choice, on subduing him into an unequal working relationship." (p.xvii)

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

everyone is entitled to an opinion. If people feel its a bit soon then fair enough. maybe it will be interesting to see how those horses are doing a few weeks and months down the line and judge wether the early introduction of the bridle and saddle was a good thing or a bad thing.

I do like monty roberts, well I liked his book read it years ago and I like how he sought to change the old, often cruel practices he saw growing up
Personally though what I find ironic about him now is that he is using quantitive scientific measures to judge the ability of people who are learning something that is about natural ability, intuition and and emotional intelligence. Its something I would have thought lent itself to qualatitive rather than quantitive subjection.

[Napoles]

I am pleased to see a positive response from some of you guys on 'join up'. I was 'nt sure what people would think of it in Ireland. :clap:



Uumm Moongirl, Monty did demos in Ireland a good ten years ago now I'd say. I don't think you are giving people much credit and would think more Irish horsey people are aware of it than you think! :)

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

Yup Napoles I remember him demonstrating in the old Kill equestrian years ago before the place was done up. :nod:

[Bobbi C]

thought i'd commented on this already, whoops!!
really interesting report.

[High_Stepper]

Yup Napoles I remember him demonstrating in the old Kill equestrian years ago before the place was done up. :nod:

I don't know if it was the same demo, i think it was at kill though, my bf was at it many moons ago. He said it was a bit nasty what people did - they brought in a dangerous stallion and i think it was for a loading demo, and said gleefully "you'll never load him". Bf was disappointed in the vibe of the demo, like, setting him up to fail? Picking an exceptional nutter, not a 'he's difficult' horse but a dangerous horse.

Anyway Monty didn't fail, he suceeded, and did so very well and shut the sceptics up.

I just started reading a free online intro to Monty Roberts' book and damnit but it's addictive reading. Now i have to wait for it to arrive by post to read more :)

I've got Kelly Marks and a few others but to be honest they'd put a glass eye to sleep.

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

sounds like it was HS :nod: I think he surprised a few people. It was all very new back then and not as many people had heard about him.

[Bobbi C]

HS, i have one of his books just sitting around here if you want to borrow it? it's, hang on....the man who listens to horses. you're more than welcome to it. great book!

[xxkarenxx]

I didn't mean to sound so sceptical as I'm sure there are a lot of elements in Join up etc that are so useful to everyday work with horses. Moongirl, I just don't think it is right that an untouched horse should be sat on in a day, it takes time they can't be fully mature in that short space to be accepting.
This is not something that I am disregarding because I don't do things that way. I am interested to hear about other ways to deal with and work with horses. I just don't like how what is mainly common sense is being branded and marketed to reach an audience.

[Guenhwyfar]

Yup it was Monty in Kill 10 years ago, when iris kellet owned Kill, caroline mentioned it at the start of the demo.

she also asked is anyone knew of monty methods, although, bar one or two who were at kill, nearly noone had personally seen him live, but nearly everyone there has watched his shows, dvds or read his books. many i got the impression had a 'fair' understanding of join up but also of the other work which follows, which was also somewhat explained but gave the impression of an process achievable in a few days but Caroline did not seem personally to use horses so young for backing, but encouraged join up from 2 years onwards, she mentioned if possible bone scans to make sure the horse was fit to carry someone. an email did circulate asking for 3 year olds for the demo, but obviously they were unable to get any.

MY OPINION, i woundnt back a horse that young, the joinup is very good and teaching to load etc young and use loads of repetition till and good experiences so when they're older its easy and not as stressfull. I personally do not think of join up solely when i hear of Monty, but its probably what id say if someone asked me to decribe Monty without giving a full blown account, so i hope im not seen as 'sad'.:blushing:

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

I just don't like how what is mainly common sense is being branded and marketed to reach an audience.

Have been saying that for years. A lof of supposed 'NH' is not new at all. In fairness in america what Monty did was new and it was different to the old ways of doing things and he had a big struggle to get accepted fair play to him he has made a difference to teh lives of lots of horse over there who would have been trained with cruel older methods otherwise.

But in Ireland I feel that a lot of NH or 'new' horsemanship is actually old traditional horsemanship rebranded. Look back 50 years and these talented wise people knew about horses and understood them. Then we got the era of purple buckets and 200 euro bits that swore to make your horse go better. The era of impatience and a flourishing economy where everyone wanted results now and to change the horse but not themselves.

Now I feel its come full circle. People are looking back to the old ways, using simple tack and thinking about the horses feelings as well as their own. They are exploring 'why' the horse does things and how to influence that - I think its a brilliant thing to happen but am disappointed when its branded as new.

A lot of what I do has been branded NH because i do a lot of stuff with herbs and batural remedies, but its not at all its just how I was thought to do things by older generations who learned that way themselves.

Bit like something RR said the other day - parents used to use natural remedies all the time rather than running to the doctor for expensive medicines for the slightest thing. But again, people are starting to revisit the natural remedies too which is great.

[Napoles]

I think I heard about that demo HS. I read Monty referring to it in something that he wrote as well. Nasty trick. He did a demo down here in Cork as well at that time.
I think he is excellent and his methods are totally grounded in common sense. I did a little bit of riding on a stallion before that had a LOT of attitude, but the owners used to send him to Richard Maxwell for refreshers ever so often and he was always much better after them.
Definitely buy Monty's book. It's an amazing read.


I don't know if it was the same demo, i think it was at kill though, my bf was at it many moons ago. He said it was a bit nasty what people did - they brought in a dangerous stallion and i think it was for a loading demo, and said gleefully "you'll never load him". Bf was disappointed in the vibe of the demo, like, setting him up to fail? Picking an exceptional nutter, not a 'he's difficult' horse but a dangerous horse.

Anyway Monty didn't fail, he suceeded, and did so very well and shut the sceptics up.

I just started reading a free online intro to Monty Roberts' book and damnit but it's addictive reading. Now i have to wait for it to arrive by post to read more :)

I've got Kelly Marks and a few others but to be honest they'd put a glass eye to sleep.

[High_Stepper]

I think I heard about that demo HS. I read Monty referring to it in something that he wrote as well. Nasty trick. He did a demo down here in Cork as well at that time.
I think he is excellent and his methods are totally grounded in common sense. I did a little bit of riding on a stallion before that had a LOT of attitude, but the owners used to send him to Richard Maxwell for refreshers ever so often and he was always much better after them.
Definitely buy Monty's book. It's an amazing read.

Lucky you and LMM getting to see him! I'll get the book :nod:

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

HS that book may well be at home in my mums house somewhere I rarely throw anything out so if it is your welcome to a lend

[Napoles]

Lucky you and LMM getting to see him! I'll get the book :nod:

Well admittedly I didn't get to see him that time. I couldn't go, but both my parents went and reported back! And my dad was non-horsey!
I have the same book as Bobbi - The Man who Listens to Horses. It's a lovely, lovely read.

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

my friend used to keep her horse up in Kill and I lived about 5 mins away so often went up to her so we would often get a sneak peek at things like the demo or the horse of the year show.
I loved the old indoor arena in kill with the pocket and the tiered seating it was fab

[High_Stepper]

HS, i have one of his books just sitting around here if you want to borrow it? it's, hang on....the man who listens to horses. you're more than welcome to it. great book!

LMM and Bobbi thanks for offering the lend of the book but i'd never give it back... i'm 'one of those' :blushing:

Gwynfhr if you're reading I don't mean about rugs - just books!! - I do give rugs back!!!

[Bobbi C]

i've read it so you're more than welcome to it. PM me your address if you want and I'll send it on. need to make room around here for other stuff so you'd be doing me a favour too!!

[Guenhwyfar]

LMM and Bobbi thanks for offering the lend of the book but i'd never give it back... i'm 'one of those' :blushing:

Gwynfhr if you're reading I don't mean about rugs - just books!! - I do give rugs back!!!



:sniggers: i believe you, as i said not in a rush to get it back, the new rugs outer layer actually does the same, and has the same weight so im all good, though doubtful really nice warmer weather is anyway close :rant:

[poi-chick]

Really interesting thread guys - great reports. I remember seeing the Monty Roberts demo in the Cavan Equestrian Centre, but am sure it was more than 10 years ago. I find a lot of the discussion/text regarding natural horsemanship. Some of it is new thinking, but the vast vast majority is a rediscovery of the knowledge and skills which were built up over hundreds of years working with horses.

[Bip]

Hope I didn't upset anyone, it really wasnt my intention.I think a lot of natural training methods are brilliant, have read a lot of books on the subject (including kelly marks)
I just think when it comes to backing a horse I wouldn't be comfortable with backing it on its second day of handling, as one of the earlier posts said, bonding and trust needs to be built up first and regardless of whether they are just being sat on I still wouldn't do it.. That is just my opinion though and I accept that many horses probably have been backed that quickly and still turned out very nicely I just wouldnt do it if it was my choice :)
Can't believe Monty Roberts was in kill that's so cool!! I wonder will he come back sometime!!

[moongirl]

Can't believe Monty Roberts was in kill that's so cool!! I wonder will he come back sometime!!

I was asking Kelly about this when I was over in England a few weeks ago, because I have never seen a demo, and unfortuneately they have no plans to come over in the near future. :(

They didn't have a great response to their last visits. Lots of sceptics, and as was already said by someone else, people purposely bringing dangerous horses ( this is why in my earlier post I said I was pleased to see a positive response to join up ). She also said people in Ireland wont commit and book in advance, so then probably wont turn up.

Next time I am over in March I will tell her there has been quite a bit of interest in them visiting, and see if I can persuede them to come back, as it would be great if they did.

[termoncarragh]

She also said people in Ireland wont commit and book in advance, so then probably wont turn up..

There's a lovely cultural stereotype in action! :rollseyes:

(sorry Moongirl, not getting at you, getting at her!)

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

thats a rather negative and unfair opinion she has of Irish people. She should really educate herself more about a market before talking herself out of it

How many people booked in advance and turned up for the 'bit between the fences' demo in Kill? or the Join Up demo itself (Caroline said there was about 40-50 people?)?.

[High_Stepper]

I was asking Kelly about this when I was over in England a few weeks ago, because I have never seen a demo, and unfortuneately they have no plans to come over in the near future. :(

They didn't have a great response to their last visits. Lots of sceptics, and as was already said by someone else, people purposely bringing dangerous horses ( this is why in my earlier post I said I was pleased to see a positive response to join up ). She also said people in Ireland wont commit and book in advance, so then probably wont turn up.

Next time I am over in March I will tell her there has been quite a bit of interest in them visiting, and see if I can persuede them to come back, as it would be great if they did.

Oh god I can relate to that. The Honza Blaha girls were over in August and I was organising a 2-day clinic for them. We got the use of a lovely outdoor arena plus stables for over-nighters. Got the clinic fully booked out only for people to ring with lame-ass excuses and the numbers dramatically whittled down (one was genuine enough she was competing) but otherwise.. next time i'll get a deposit in advance. I was turning people away, arranging stables, horses for those who didn't have their own, and accommodation. It re-filled but it certainly made me see if from the organisers point of view, it ain't always pretty!!!

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

I dont think its an Irish thing though HS its just human nature. Get a non refundable despoit off people or full payment in advance and they will turn up :)

[ell]

I did a good few of these courses over in the UK a few years back. There's a guy called Ian over there who is a very knowledge and talented guy. Some of the folk there are very good. But there's good (yep I found Kellys books an enjoyable read) and not so good in everything I guess (their riding intro, the flooding in demos and young horse starting made me uncomfortable). I unfortunately got a bit of 'attitude' for being Irish during these classes which I didn't appreciate .... Anyway I moved on to learn from other trainers who do stuff differently so its been an educational journey, which is whats its all about I guess :) You've got to find a teacher who's good for you.


A lot of supposed 'NH' is not new at all. In fairness in america what Monty did was new and it was different to the old ways of doing things and he had a big struggle to get accepted fair play to him he has made a difference to teh lives of lots of horse over there who would have been trained with cruel older methods otherwise.

Nope, Monty didn't invent any of this, anywhere. There have been talented horseman in all parts of the globe before the current crew came along. There are brilliant horse people all over Ireland too. You dont need certs and stuff, you need experience, talent, understanding, knowledge, feel and a love for horses. Check out Tom Dorrances books. I think Montys the only one who claims to have 'invented' stuff..... :blushing: so I don't go along with that statement.

Anyway :) That's just my opinion. Because everyone is different we will all like different stuff, so if you find a trainer you like, go for it and learn as much as you can. In the end its all about our horses :)

Elaine xx.

[Napoles]

Yep, I would agree with HS. From experience of my mum organising dressage trainers to come over and do clinics, it's a nightmare trying to get people to definitely commit and turn-up. It is not a thing against Natural Horsemanship, I think it is just logistically difficult to organise something like that and get all elements in the same place at the same time!

Deposits are definitely the way to go and for something like a demonstration where people only have to bring themselves to go and watch - PR, PR and more PR, which is something I would have thought would have been easy for media-savvy people like the Monty Roberts team. As far as I remember there was a huge crowd when he came down to do the demo in Cork?

[moongirl]

thats a rather negative and unfair opinion she has of Irish people. She should really educate herself more about a market before talking herself out of it



Obviously I am only quoting what she said to me, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with it.

But this is based on their experience of the last tours they did of Ireland, not just an ignorant statement based on stereotypes. ( Kelly always organises and does the tours with Monty )

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

I just find it odd if they are organising tours all across the world and they still have that problems. I thought it would be obvious that pre payment deposit or full payment in advance is the way to go. I copped on to that one quick enough after organising riding club christmas parties a few times :D

[High_Stepper]

I definitely have more sympathy for RC events having organised that clinic myself, the deposit thing, well when it was people I knew I would have felt awkward asking for the deposit upfront. But... live and lean, i'd ask the next time.

I don't think it was to do with NH/horsemanship it's just the nature of event management! - eta based on my limited experience of organising ONE NH clinic!!

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

Its definately teh nature of event management in general Hs :nod: People tend to agree to things in a non committal way to keep their options open which causes havok.
You end up having to have a hard neck and demand deposits