Educate me please!!!

[Little Miss]

So I was just wondering could you please educate me on nh. What I don't understand is why is it called natural if you are using aids (ropes, whips)? now I know your actually not using them in any manner thats agressive.

What are your aims, what do you intend to get out of it? Do you feel it would really help you from a competition point of view and how so? Is it more for just bonding with your horse on a deeper level? Have you seen huge improvements?

Now I understand that it can obviously be good for a horse that has experienced trama at some stage in their life but I want the views of owners who haven't had major issues, just a normal horse with no life scars so to speak.

And finally are there different methods and training guides, do they contradict? How do you think the Irish are with regards our methods of breaking etc...and I don't mean "rough" I mean genuine people who are gentle when breaking.

Sorry for all the questions I just want to understand it better and see if I feel I could really gain/achieve something from adopting it.

[Knot69]

well I'm no expert and wont be able to answer all you questions first of the natural bit is from the way u communicate with the horse all thou this is a matter of opinion and seems 2 be falling by the way side. nh uses some of the horses own body language and signals.
as to Wat you get out of it stronger bond with your horse better understanding of what mood and state of mind your horse is in at any one time. so you can Taylor your training and attitude to suit as to get the best from your partnership.
i personally only started down the nh root when the methods i had been using didn't work with a problem i had had with my gf horse for two years. so when i saw an article telling me how nh could solve the prob i thought what the hell have i got to lose. well nothing because it worked.
i am now using said methods on all of my horses and will let u no how that gos.
there are so many different nh practitioners out there and the main difference i can see is the amount of pressure that is used and some of the tools differ as well.
the best advise i can give you is to research a few methods and names and see Wat u think.
hope that helps like i said im only just starting to learn my self. if you have questions about what i have said ask and i will do my best to elaborate

[poi-chick]

Personal opinion here but I believe a lot of what is now termed "Natural Horsemanship" is actually the traditional way of working with horses. My grandfather used to train work horses and his approaches and techniques were passed on to my dad. While neither man ever heard of NH the approaches and methods they use are all about working with the horse. One of Dad's theories about why NH is now becoming so popular is that many of the traditional methods of working with horses are being lost as people spend less time with the horses and haven't the experience of handling horses that people had years ago. I know some people in one yard I was based at came back from a NH clinic with new found wisdom. My 10 year old cousin couldn't see any difference between what this lady had paid to be taught at the NH and what Dad had been teach her about working with her own 12hh pony. To be honest, I was inclined to agree with my cousin.

While I know some NH practioners to be good horsemen and women, some are in my opinions jumping on a gimicky bandwagon seeming to invent something new which isn't new at all. I have attended clinics which I found helpful and informative and others which I felt was complete cabbage. I think the focus should be on horsemanship as there seems to be an awful lot of division between those who use NH methods and those who use other methods.

Surely it should be a case of using the methods that work best for each horse. I do have to place a lot of faith and respect in the experience and knowledge of a man who has been producing horses for 50+ years. Wether his methods would be considered NH or not I don't know.

[EK2008]

Hi Little Miss
A good question right i will simplfy it in terms that is easy explainable as it sometimes is easier to explain something like this face to face as i would be more passionate about this .

I suppose there is a lot of terminology around this and it can be easily described as horsemanship the term natural was penned along the way somewhere as bringing it all back to as natural as possible with as little artificial aids as possible.And understanding and studing horses in the wild in their natural envoirnment and using that knowledge gained to adapt to the domisticated horse and gaining a greater understanding of the behaviours of horses.

I suppose to get one thing straight the "sticks" you see being used are used as a training aid and NOT actually used as a whip. (as you said)
Parelli who you see no doubt on horse&country uses his own training aid in the shape of a stick it is orange so he calls it a carrot stick.
Basically the difference behind using a training aid like a carrot stick and using a whip is the INTENT in your thinking& in your actions as we all know horses are very intelligent and we all have numerous stories we can give to support this.

Ok next Why do we Use Ropes and sometimes a rope halter.
Well if you take it this way no training of horse&human can begin until you establish some main pointers .
That you can move the horse anywhere you want when you ask and that he does not move you .
If you take it the horse usually has come in contact with lots of humans all through their life.
Not any one human is the same each one reacts differently to each animal they handle the same goes for the horse if the horse feels threatened the either as you know are Flight or fight usually flight and that is where you begin

If you have a horse who is a bit pushy and will lead you rather than you leading them then you need a rope. #

In all honesty take your rope off your horse let it out into a field with other horses and see who do they rather be with??
Do the hang out with the human (who they push around and a a bit strong on the rope with) or do they go off and eat grass with their friends.

Usually the latter fair play if your horse chooses to be with you over his mates you already have a bond with your horse.

So in order to get the horse into thinking mode and change his way of thinking in order for him to want to be with you and for him to say "oh im not sure about this what you are asking of me is it safe ??" He will look to you and you will go "yes it is " now this obviously is not the spoken word it is through body language and assistance with the rope.



I use a rope and a headcollar and then when necessary a rope halter. I do not use a stick so its just as above mentioned what is use.
The initial need for the rope would be establishing pressure when the pressure in on and the release of pressure (pressure off )
I JUST USE THe example of a group of horses in a field and you will see the lead horse move the others out of the way by their body pressure when they all know each other it is very seldom when kicking of any action is involved .


I think the thing about horsemanship be it good horsemanship or natural or any other sort you will find that the person does as you stated find a deeper understanding with their horse they do not need to go out and prove to anyone that they are good at what they do .
You wil find that there are lots of people out there unheard of as good horse men and women who are going about doing some good work but not necessarily "advertising " it .
I think that the feelings that you get are different than winning a rossette of a prize.

Now ia aint saying that everyone that practices NH is all airy fairy and condems any other methods used .

Some people use in conjunction with their training methods .
Yes there are differnt methods and training there are numerous some over lap some dont .


Yes there are people pit there who are naturally good and naturally talented and then there are others who are in the horse game to make a few pound but thats business and those people are in every corner of society.

I think that the good dont get the recognition that the deserve as people are so so quick to pass judgement and to criticise but there are so many good horse people out there too who dont use NH as its called but are using their own natural & gentle ways


I think it is not about the horse it is about you as a person looking more into your self and your actions .
Do you ever see a horse owner who is hot tempered and impatient and highly stressed- chances are the horse will display very similar temperments mirroring the humans--

I have got a substantial amount from being with my horse and doing various work with them sometimes words cant describe its the contentment and the
feeling of trust and compatability that i have got .
IT is the making a better horse a problem free horse a horse who will do almost anything you ask of him (that he physically can give ) .
Yes it has helped mem greatly as i have a horse who i completly trust never spooks at anything you can bring him anywhere and everyone comments on how quiet he is as he knows that there is no need to be on high alert as thats my responsibilty .

i know a horse who if an adult leads it to the field for example it will be pushy and try to break through the pressure of the headscollar.
But if you get a 7yr old to lead the same horse the rope is slack the horse is not pulling at all and everything is calm .
It s all about the intent and obviously this horse knows that adults have more intent and more "il show this one not to be pushing me around " attitude


To answer your last question
It is so hard to say what is a normal horse with no scars these horses are the ones who have had the least amount of contact with humans . Maybe the ones running wild (or as wild as can be in ireland) with very little contact.

Yes these intiailly will be scared but these sort of horses can be easier than a horse who hs been moved from sale to sale dealer to dealer through out his young life and then to end up a difficult 4 yr old
These are the sort that have got conflicting messages from humans all their lives.
One person may be consistent the other person may not be.


Does this make it easier for you to grasp ??

[Tharg]

Marketing terms/buzz words to make money! Not to mention the paraphenalia that goes with some of it.

[Welsh Girl]

To me Natural Horsemanship is not so much about the methods, its more a feel, a way of thinking, and a way of being. A lot of the problems we encounter with our horses come from our lack of understanding our own true nature as well as theirs. We as human beings have stepped so far away from our true nature that many of us can’t even comprehend that we are even a part of nature’s cycle.

I see many people working with horses who do not understand them. Many people use methods that have been handed down to them father to son etc, and have somehow lost the feel of how and when to apply these methods, that is when force is introduced and understanding from both the horse and the human goes out the window. Usually in this instance the horse simply adapts and does as he has been told just to get the day over with.

I also see it from the other extreme, some folk apply human values and wants onto their horse. They think that the horse likes to be constantly cuddled and left to have his own way, never asking anything of the horse and never giving it the chance to experience life or stretch itself. They treat the horse as if its a human child and the horse nevers matures beyond a teenage mentality. I find this equally as sickening.

Natural Horsemanship is about bringing the focus onto your relationship with your horse and training it from a point of view, and using methods the horse can easily comprehend.

Thats my take on it. :)

[KainerAndJenny]

What we now call Natural Horsemanship has been around for 1000s of years.

It puzzles me why anybody would question its name because of this. It is called Natural because it is, well, natural! Just because people have been practising it for years doesn't make it any less natural.

I feel that nh is about entering your horses world, rather than forcing the horse to enter yours. It earns you a mutual respect for eachother.

The use of tools, to me, doesn't make it less natural because the tools represent body parts that we don't have.
The carrott stick is designed to be an extention of your arm so you can do anything with your horse and still stay safe.
The string on the end of the stick is used for desensitising the horse, but also represents a horses tail. If you stand beside your horse head, facing his rear, swishing the string over his back end, it is like another horse swishing their tail over him to swat flies.

I think that some concepts of NH are brilliant to have from a safety aspect. Teaching your horse the Porcupine and the Driving game will help protect you in circumstances that might other wise be out of your control!

Everything is based on the way horses relate to EACHOTHER, not to US.
Basically, it makes you less of a predator and more of a horse!

I think what you can achieve from NH is amazing. My horse has been transformed into a trusting, confident, happy boy who is delighted to see me and anyone else enter the field.

I think it is important to look past the commercial side of it. Pat Parelli has made his own system and he sells it. It doesn't mean he thinks he invented it! It just comes naturally to him and it is what he is good at.

It really is worth a try!

[Tharg]

Humans used their ingenuity (and big brains) to domesticate the horse, there is nothing 'natural' about it. The natural state of a horse is when there is no interaction with humans.

The only thing that seperates 'NH' from the long standing way of doing things (barring the idiots) is the twisting of old knowledge into shiny new buzz words with complete disregard that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Common sense is what is predominantely involved with horses, which sadly some lack.

[Nick]

I think perhaps, that we may have to be a little more tolerant of NH in the NH forum. Or else create a couple of dedicated threads for the NH Debate.

I did not like to see that threads in the general equestrian becoming clogged up with NH concepts, so I think that it is only fair that threads in the NH forum do not end up with the NH people having to justify their beliefs.

I will kick this concept around with the other mods and the admin, however, in the mean time, can we please return to topic?

I would like to be able to entertain the idea of NH/Traditional debate, but I would like to see it done in a manner which does not polarise or derail the forum.

[High_Stepper]

Thank you SO much for that post Nick, that is the VERY REASON i didn't want a NH forum, as i wearily sigh every time there is a need to justify it.

But we have one now and i think it's going quite nicely, I stand corrected, so all is well in the s2s NH forum world :)

To respond to OPs post:



So I was just wondering could you please educate me on nh. What I don't understand is why is it called natural if you are using aids (ropes, whips)? now I know your actually not using them in any manner thats agressive.

What are your aims, what do you intend to get out of it? Do you feel it would really help you from a competition point of view and how so? Is it more for just bonding with your horse on a deeper level? Have you seen huge improvements?

Now I understand that it can obviously be good for a horse that has experienced trama at some stage in their life but I want the views of owners who haven't had major issues, just a normal horse with no life scars so to speak.

And finally are there different methods and training guides, do they contradict? How do you think the Irish are with regards our methods of breaking etc...and I don't mean "rough" I mean genuine people who are gentle when breaking.

Sorry for all the questions I just want to understand it better and see if I feel I could really gain/achieve something from adopting it.
The lead rope and training stick etc, I think they're used because it's the 'less is more' approach. You won't see a NH person work a horse in a chambon, de gouge, side reins to help the horse into an outline. They'll use different methods. Ultimately I think 'NH' riders are trying to get to a point where they could ride their horses, in most situations, without any gear on them - that would be a goal of sorts, would you agree guys?

The aims, are all the things you mention... It definitely helps in modern competitions to have your horse trained these ways. For example bf's show horse is trained this way and he's magnificent. When he is standing up for his inspection at a show class, a simple discreet movement can make him back up on any of his four legs into a perfect square halt. That is handy!

Agree to a point with Tharg on many ways to skin a cat. Modern methods are often without aggravation too and NH does not have the monopoly on this. Many people use non-NH gear and are extremelyl kind to their horses and focused on the horses well being. But NH is also a hell of a lot of fun to do, to figure out, and you'll be left dwelling over many parts of your horses' character once you start doing bits of it.

One other point, I'm thinking hard of the differences between the horses i know managed in a 'NH' way compared to 'English' or whatever, one difference is I've never seen an NH horse go sour for it's job.

There's also less 'fuss' surrounding NH horses - turn em out, let em get on with being horses, they are not over-humanised.

Final point - NH isn't the training method you use for the 60 mins you work on your horse, it's how you'd manage your horse overall.

That's my take on it (from a NH fence sitter :D)

[Teegee]

I think perhaps, that we may have to be a little more tolerant of NH in the NH forum. Or else create a couple of dedicated threads for the NH Debate.

I did not like to see that threads in the general equestrian becoming clogged up with NH concepts, so I think that it is only fair that threads in the NH forum do not end up with the NH people having to justify their beliefs.

I will kick this concept around with the other mods and the admin, however, in the mean time, can we please return to topic?

I would like to be able to entertain the idea of NH/Traditional debate, but I would like to see it done in a manner which does not polarise or derail the forum.

In total agreement Nick. I am really pleased to see that unlike last time, this forum has taken off. When it was here before there was only ever one post!

[Knot69]

eg:irish vs nh methods i have a Shetland cross which i started using methods taught to me by a professional horse breaker. i was very gentle with him and all went well but he was hard 2 catch spooky and i found that he didn't seem to enjoy his work i have since been working with him with the nh methods ie the 7 games and he is now coming to me even wen im just out to check walls and fences. in fact there seems to be a que for attention thees days
as i said in an earlier post I'm now hopeing to start my yearling using hn methods but will have to wait a few years be for ill be able to comment on that
so i think the conclusion iv come to is that the nh methods are more engaging and easier under stood and enjoyed by my horses anyway
hope this helps:)

[poi-chick]

eg:irish vs nh methods i have a Shetland cross which i started using methods taught to me by a professional horse breaker. i was very gentle with him and all went well but he was hard 2 catch spooky and i found that he didn't seem to enjoy his work i have since been working with him with the nh methods ie the 7 games and he is now coming to me even wen im just out to check walls and fences. in fact there seems to be a que for attention thees days
as i said in an earlier post I'm now hopeing to start my yearling using hn methods but will have to wait a few years be for ill be able to comment on that
so i think the conclusion iv come to is that the nh methods are more engaging and easier under stood and enjoyed by my horses anyway
hope this helps:)

Whats the 7s game?

[Knot69]

take alook http://irishnhsociety.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=usefulinformation&action=display&thread=1033

[poi-chick]

:( it said the thread doesn't exist.

[Knot69]

whoops have fixed it now

[Little Miss]

Oh they actually aim to ride in an outline, ah so thats cool and interesting I always thought that the techniques were just to give confindence and break old habbits in order to make the horse just rideable!!!

I notice someone said that they develop a system as such, they dont actually claim that they created the methods thats great as I thought they were claiming them and I had formed a negative opinion on it.

I'm sorry if I have triggered some debates but I just wanted realistic opinions from first hand experience as I have watched a little on tv and I cant stand the cheesey showmanship incorporated and I just change the channel immediately.

I'm actually getting persuaded to give it a go as I'm due to start breaking two untouched ponies over the summer and there in no real hurry so it would be a great project for me. Where would I find information on where to start, is there good books or videos based soley the breaking phase of a horse or do you just start normally and incorporate the "games" as such into their training?

Thanks:)

[KainerAndJenny]

Humans used their ingenuity (and big brains) to domesticate the horse, there is nothing 'natural' about it. The natural state of a horse is when there is no interaction with humans.

The only thing that seperates 'NH' from the long standing way of doing things (barring the idiots) is the twisting of old knowledge into shiny new buzz words with complete disregard that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Common sense is what is predominantely involved with horses, which sadly some lack.


I don't feel this is a necessary post in this thread.

The point of doing NH is to make everything as natuaral as possible. As I said before; enterintg the horses world rather than bringing the horse into yours.

Again, yes, NH is long standing and has now been given 'buzz words' but that is so it can be taught to other people more easily.
Just because these methods have been given names doesn't mean anyone is claiming that it is new and just invented!


LMM- Go for it, give it a try. You have nothing to lose. If it doesn't suit you, just stop! There is a huge chance you and your horse might love it :)

I am so glad you have managed to take the good points from this thread. The point of the NH forum was to discuss and educate on the topic, not slate it :D

[KainerAndJenny]

LMM - (sorry, another post at you!) - Try your best to ignore the cheesiness!! I can't stand it either but you can learn so much from those men and women. Watch them all and take pieces from each to form what you like and what you feel your horse will benifit from.

:D

[Nick]

Please note that Little Miss and Little-Miss-Muppet are not the same user! :)

I am glad we are all in agreement.

[KainerAndJenny]

Please note that Little Miss and Little-Miss-Muppet are not the same user! :)

I am glad we are all in agreement.

OH! OOPS! My bad! I didn't look properly!

Thanks Nick!

[Tharg]

I don't feel this is a necessary post in this thread.

The point of doing NH is to make everything as natuaral as possible. As I said before; enterintg the horses world rather than bringing the horse into yours.

Again, yes, NH is long standing and has now been given 'buzz words' but that is so it can be taught to other people more easily.
Just because these methods have been given names doesn't mean anyone is claiming that it is new and just invented!



If we all said the same things the world would be a very dull place.

Different strokes for different folks!

[EK2008]

I think perhaps, that we may have to be a little more tolerant of NH in the NH forum. Or else create a couple of dedicated threads for the NH Debate.

I did not like to see that threads in the general equestrian becoming clogged up with NH concepts, so I think that it is only fair that threads in the NH forum do not end up with the NH people having to justify their beliefs.

I will kick this concept around with the other mods and the admin, however, in the mean time, can we please return to topic?

I would like to be able to entertain the idea of NH/Traditional debate, but I would like to see it done in a manner which does not polarise or derail the forum.


Well said Nick
if people dont agree fair enough or if people do not have an interest in it fair enough
There are various threads that i do not reply to because i do not have an interest in the topic i do not have knowledge in the topic or i do not have time to be posting (limited amount of time for internet)

Of course as THarg as said differnt strokes for different folks - vice versa

I have not seen one post here on this thread condemn traditional methods so i think people seem to jump on the band wagon where NH is concerned and think that anyone who is interested in it "detests " anyone who uses traditional methods.


Tharg- have you had a bad experience with someone who has used so called NH methods ?
As you said that its twisting old knowledge into shiny new buzzwords-- one person for example Parelli admits that all his knowledge aint new it is old old stuff
I saw him live twice and he admited that numerous times thoughout i have never once heard him clain it was his .

Now he is big into merchandising (why not) as he has made millions from it
If you had an idea to make you a multi multi millionare would you pass on the idea and not go for it ??

Bloddy sure i would could do with the few quid !

[poi-chick]

Well said Nick
if people dont agree fair enough or if people do not have an interest in it fair enough
There are various threads that i do not reply to because i do not have an interest in the topic i do not have knowledge in the topic or i do not have time to be posting (limited amount of time for internet)

Of course as THarg as said differnt strokes for different folks - vice versa

I have not seen one post here on this thread condemn traditional methods so i think people seem to jump on the band wagon where NH is concerned and think that anyone who is interested in it "detests " anyone who uses traditional methods.


Tharg- have you had a bad experience with someone who has used so called NH methods ?
As you said that its twisting old knowledge into shiny new buzzwords-- one person for example Parelli admits that all his knowledge aint new it is old old stuff
I saw him live twice and he admited that numerous times thoughout i have never once heard him clain it was his .

Now he is big into merchandising (why not) as he has made millions from it
If you had an idea to make you a multi multi millionare would you pass on the idea and not go for it ??

Bloddy sure i would could do with the few quid !

I might be risking us going round in circles here but is it not fair of me to have the opinion that good horsemanship is simply that, good horsemanship. I don't see the need to break it down into traditional methods and natural methods. Good horsemanship of any form works in partnership or sympathy with the horse's psychology and physiology. I think if people get head up on attaching themselves to one specific method there is a risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Any method which aids the development of the partnership between horse and rider/handler should be a good thing.

[EK2008]

great - well this NH forum section should be kept then for posts similar to the title of this section and any wandering off the topics must not be tolerated.

as lots of other equestrian boards that feature NH always has heated debates from those who do not agree or like it . and it takes the fun out of having a resource like this available to us

thats all im going to say :)

[intouch]

I've recently got a P/T job in a tack shop - have a look next time you're in one at all the torture devices that are used in the name of "traditional" horsemanship!! "Can I have something to keep his mouth shut and stop him shaking his head" or "Can you make me a buck strap - but it has to be elasticated as I want to use it for jumping" - just 2 requests I heard today.

If "NH" - I prefer just to call it Horsemanship - can re-educate just a few people to a kinder way of working with horses, then it can't be bad, no mater what it's called.
There will always be those who don't want to learn, thankfully some newer horse owners who aren't prepared to accept some of the abuse that goes on in the name of horsemanship have access to ropewavers & carrot sticks (what's in a name?) to teach them.

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

Yup two different people easy to get us confused though :)

[Slide'n'Stop]

Oh they actually aim to ride in an outline, ah so thats cool and interesting I always thought that the techniques were just to give confindence and break old habbits in order to make the horse just rideable!!!

I notice someone said that they develop a system as such, they dont actually claim that they created the methods thats great as I thought they were claiming them and I had formed a negative opinion on it.

I'm sorry if I have triggered some debates but I just wanted realistic opinions from first hand experience as I have watched a little on tv and I cant stand the cheesey showmanship incorporated and I just change the channel immediately.

I'm actually getting persuaded to give it a go as I'm due to start breaking two untouched ponies over the summer and there in no real hurry so it would be a great project for me. Where would I find information on where to start, is there good books or videos based soley the breaking phase of a horse or do you just start normally and incorporate the "games" as such into their training?

Thanks:)

Hi Little Miss, just to get back to your question on where to find info on breaking & starting horses I can recommend a few. If you're like me and find the likes of the very commercialized guys a bit hard to take, take a look at Tom and Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman. These guys are the considered the inner cirlce of horsemanship in the States. They show true horsemanship through feel (excuse the use of Bill's book title). Many of the people you see today practicing have learnt from these guys. There are some excellent books and dvds out there too on colt starting and groundworking - Brannaman has some real good one's; and a dvd called 'The First Week' shows three very good horseman, Jim & Byran Neubert and Joe Wolter, starting about 20 - 30 head of horses. Also, Western Horseman do a very good series of books - Kurt Pate's Colt Starting is a great starting point. These are very much Western based, but it all applies to English riding just the same, if that is how you ride. Many of these guys aren't too keen on the description of "Natural Horsemanship" as such, they really just see it as good, effective and sympathetic horsemanship.
It really is a case of exposing yourself to as many different trainers and ideas as possible and picking out the best parts of all of them. :) Enjoy your journey!

[Little Miss]

Well i'm really sorry if this thread did annoy anyone.

I actually have come to positive conclusions based on both the negatives and positives, such as I was being synical towards the actual name as I took the word natural far too literally.

Intouch I agree with your name suggestion of just Horsemanship, something along the lines of "genuine horsemanship". Ok i'm not going to get into re-naming it :)

Thanks guys you've been a great help and now I'll watch it on tv and try and ignore the cheesiness of some of it, I'm actually excited about applying it, the bond will be a major part for me.

[termoncarragh]

If we all said the same things the world would be a very dull place.

Different strokes for different folks!

Tharg, there's saying what you think and stirring up an argument for no good reason though. Two different things :nod: