barefoot

[Knot69]

we have recently gone barefoot and apart from one short spell of soreness. they all seem to been doing really well with out shoes and was just wondering what you experiences were

[intouch]

If you search the posts for barefoot, there is quite a lot of info. My horses have all been barefoot for about 5 years, and I have re-hab-ed several. Check out www.barefootandbitless.co.uk (unashamed promotion!)

[Welsh Girl]

Never done it for the sake of it. But on the other hand I don't shoe my horses if they're not in hard work.

My Welsh pony is now 17 and has never worn shoes his entire life. He was ridden a lot in his younger years, shown Sj etc and never missed having shoes. Have never had a barefoot trimmer to him though he just gets a trim from my regular farrier and that seems to keep him neat and straight. Its quite common at home not to shoe welsh ponies unless they're in danger of getting sore.

My thoroughbred though goes lame the minute he loses a shoe even if he's out in the field. His feet are appallingly sensitive.

[Knot69]

Never done it for the sake of it. But on the other hand I don't shoe my horses if they're not in hard work.

My Welsh pony is now 17 and has never worn shoes his entire life. He was ridden a lot in his younger years, shown Sj etc and never missed having shoes. Have never had a barefoot trimmer to him though he just gets a trim from my regular farrier and that seems to keep him neat and straight. Its quite common at home not to shoe welsh ponies unless they're in danger of getting sore.

My thoroughbred though goes lame the minute he loses a shoe even if he's out in the field. His feet are appallingly sensitive.

so you don't have them barefoot just unshod i no its very confusing but was hoping to here from people that have there horses barefoot trimmed rather than thous hows farriers do a box or pasture trim

[Knot69]

If you search the posts for barefoot, there is quite a lot of info. My horses have all been barefoot for about 5 years, and I have re-hab-ed several. Check out www.barefootandbitless.co.uk (unashamed promotion!)

thanks intouch very helpful as usual:nod:

[Welsh Girl]

I'm curious about this...

Did you get a barefoot trimmer to do your horses?

What is the difference between a farrier trim and a barefoot trim? I know thats a huge question, sorry, but so many folk try and explain it and I just get lost. My farrier says there is a lot to it, but also that there are a lot of folks out there who aren't properly trained doing it, which is as bad as having your horse shod by improperly trainded farrier.

Why is shoeing thought to be detrimental?

Do you have any pics of the underneath of your horses feet? I have noticed that horses/ponies that have never been shod have very different feet to horses that have been shod. The soles and the frog are different.

Thanks :)

[Casperlady]

I have left my mare unshod for the main reason she is too dangerous to even just trim her front feet which as a result they only get done once or twice a year unless she has cracks or is very long, her back feet havent been done in about two years but she tends to drag her toes so they stay well shaped and crack free suprisingly. Clover is unshod that joy is for next year :eek: and misty is still learning about trimming

[Knot69]

[QUOTE=Welsh Girl;198534]I'm curious about this...

Did you get a barefoot trimmer to do your horses?
yes i did all the hoses are now barefoot.
What is the difference between a farrier trim and a barefoot trim?
as far as i can discern the main difference is the farrier trim is done with the ultimate goal of fitting a shoe and the barefoot trim is done to keep the foot health and in good condition.I'm sure there's more to it but that's the short answer
Why is shoeing thought to be detrimental?
the main reasons shoeing is thought to be detrimental is that most shoes are mass produced so are usually fitted and then the hoof is shaped to the shoe which causes its own problems.not to mention the loss of blood flow caused by the shoe not allowing the hoof to flex properly.
as for photos, ill work on that.

[Welsh Girl]

Nice concise explanation, cheers Knot69 :thumb:
Love to see those pics if you get a chance. :nod:

:)

[eileen]

oh god my mare cant go 2 yards without shoes!
she goes very lame very fast (on road or gravel)
plus she has very flat hooves that need some stability
round the edges or they go even flatter...

edit; i would never settle for cheap shoes tho. always a good
farrier, and the shoes made to fit. wont settle for anything else.
:nod: horse's hooves are like toddler's feet; go wrong once with
shoes and the fault is there for life

i do encourage barefoot if the horse's hooves can take it.
careful with sensitive hooves though.

[intouch]

Reasons for going without shoes:

Metal shoes restrict the development of the lateral cartileges and digital cushion, so horse is more likely to have thin soles/flat feet, poor hoof wall growth/cracks, develop navicular syndrome, ring/side bone etc - this can also go further with more likelyhood of sprains and strains and even back problems. With poor hoof balance, all sorts of conformation defects can be down to shoes. Of course, with a really good farrier, your horse may never have a problem.

With a good barefoot trim, horse will have much better traction on metalled surfaces, and a horse used to being shoeless has great traction and balance on even muddy surfaces.

No need for overreach/fetlock/brushing boots as horse unlikely to damage himself.

Much less likehood of serious damage from kicks (although I once saw a spark fly off a guy's head with a barehoof kick! (He survived.) (Yes, the guy.)

You are much less likely to have your toes trodden on as horse can feel where he is putting his feet, and without shoes, much less pain if you do!

You can creep up on people when out hacking (fun).

You can learn how to do a maintenance trim quite easily, and you develop a lot of knowledge about your horse that you would miss out on.

You turn into a hoof anorak.

[Welsh Girl]

Thanks intouch!

What is the digital cushion? I'm looking in my anatomy book now but I can't find it?

How long does the transission normally take? For example my horse a half bred that is only shod when in hard work, 13 years old.

You have nice anoraks by the way..:sniggers:

[intouch]

This gives a pretty good explanation of the DC. .

http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G2740

It's like a gel pad inside the hoof, as the hoof expands on weight bearing, the DC is compressed then springs back. If the hoof can't expand, the DC doesn't get enough stimulus, so atrophies, or never develops properly, if the horse is shod too young.

First horse I took barefoot took almost 2 years to get sound - 10 yo OTTB with flipper feet. If I'd known then what I know now....

Usually 2 - 3 months to transition, with regular attention and prescribed exercise, but depends what you want the horse to do. Some horses will always need boots for heavy work - but boots for special occasions beats wearing hiking boots to bed!

The reason some horses will 'never' go barefoot is because the DCs are non-functioning. It may take longer, but with TLC, most horses can come good without shoes. Again, depends what you want to do with them, but if a horse is lame without shoes, then that horse is lame - metal shoes are just covering up the problem, not curing it.

Well, you asked! I am a bit passionate about it. :soapbox:

[Welsh Girl]

Thanks Intouch you're teaching me a lot on this subject and I appreciate it. :) Its good to be passionate about something.

The last person I spoke to about it wasn't very nice and I've been afraid to broach the subject with anyone since


The reason some horses will 'never' go barefoot is because the DCs are non-functioning. It may take longer, but with TLC, most horses can come good without shoes. Again, depends what you want to do with them, but if a horse is lame without shoes, then that horse is lame - metal shoes are just covering up the problem, not curing it.

This is so true of our fella, he is hopping lame without shoes. He's an ex-racer that was probably shod as he came out of the womb. He's about 17.2hh and His feet are appalling, his frogs are smaller than the 13.2hh's! When we first bought him our farrier advised us to put gel pads under his shoes as we couldn't ride him outside of an arena without him walking like a cat on hot tin roof :eek:

How does a person go about finding a barefoot trimmer? Its taken me 4 years to find the farrier I have! I have kicked so many off the yard for nailing behind the vertical and shoeing the heels too tight.

[Rips]

So what about the horses who were shod only when their workload required it?

My horse lived out untouched until he was 3, he didn't have any foot care as far as I'm aware, as he didn't know how to pick up his feet, and his hooves appeared to be naturally worn. They were long (from a conventional POV) and had some superficial cracks but other then that they hard, he had good sole and frog and was completely sound.
He continued barefoot for a year, he was longreining and walking inhand over lots of different types of terrain... he had two trims in this time (he didn't require any more as his feet were wearing naturally, which I've heard is the aim of horses who are 'barefoot' rather then just unshod)

From what you are saying (and from what I've read about other peoples barefoot horses) with the light work he was doing, his hooves could only have improved, as his digital cushion was being stimulated, increase of bloodflow to his legs and hooves etc All the benefits of barefoot. And yet, the more his workload increased, the worse his feet became and this workload was introduced very very gradually over the space of a year.

Barefoot, 3yrs, near fore
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff211/BVS_Photos/Hooves/nearforeside.jpg

Sole of same (he has very narrow frogs anyway, they were a little bit grotty/weak as it was winter/very wet) No thrush. And I think he has good concavity for a TB.
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff211/BVS_Photos/Hooves/nearfore2.jpg


By the time he was backed, he was beginning to get sore, and definitely couldn't cope with the added weight of a rider over harder surfaces (ok in the sand arena, but not on the smooth tarmac roads) He started to tentively step across the gravel on the way out of the field.

This is when I decided to have him shod. Yes, now after a year of having shoes, he now cannot survive without, he still has a good thick sole but is more susceptible to thrush, within two days of losing a shoe, he will be footsoreand he get stonebruises (especially behind) if he is left without for very long. His frog quality however seems to have improved. With shoes he is perfectly sound and capable of the work he is required to do... so shoes it is.

I'm also one who doesn't think a horse should have to go through months of pottering around when there feet are being 'rehabilated'... he's sound with shoes, what is the problem?

[Welsh Girl]

I think the thoroughbred is a prime example of tunnel vision selective breeding. They have been selectively bred for athletic ability to the detriment of characteristics such good feet.

My Welshie has never worn shoes, never had a barefoot specialist, gets a trim maybe three times a year. Yet he hacked out on roads 2/week, showed and showjumped sound his whole short working career (He had a short career as I could never find a small enough jockey). He'll never stand a chance of winning ascot, but I know he would survive very well on the side of welsh mountain, without any human contact, and come home sound and fat after the hardest winters.

In the first pick of your horses foot, he has very low heels to me. Our farrier at home who looked after unshod welshie feet would have allowed the heels to build up so that the frog did not make constant contact with the ground. No idea if this is the correct "Barefoot" treatment.

[Rips]

I think the thoroughbred is a prime example of tunnel vision selective breeding. They have been selectively bred for athletic ability to the detriment of characteristics such good feet.

My Welshie has never worn shoes, never had a barefoot specialist, gets a trim maybe three times a year. Yet he hacked out on roads 2/week, showed and showjumped sound his whole short working career (He had a short career as I could never find a small enough jockey). He'll never stand a chance of winning ascot, but I know he would survive very well on the side of welsh mountain, without any human contact, and come home sound and fat after the hardest winters.

In the first pick of your horses foot, he has very low heels to me. Our farrier at home who looked after unshod welshie feet would have allowed the heels to build up so that the frog did not make constant contact with the ground. No idea if this is the correct "Barefoot" treatment.


Well its interesting, but I feel like you about it... some horses can and will go barefoot... like your welshie, who just never needed shoes... but I personally don't see that its most horses benefit to whip off their shoes and 'transition them' to barefoot... especially if it causes unwarranted suffering - which I feel very strongly about. I've known barefoot emphatics who have had horses that were on/off foresore for for up to a year or more, who throw up abcesses and stone bruises on a regular basis... and its treated like a 'setback'... no, its needless suffering - put shoes on your horse! (Unless there is an existing condition where barefoot would be better in the long run)
Knot64 I'm not aiming this at you BTW :) speaking in general.

I also don't like the change in attitude that 'shoes cause or exaccerbate disease processes of the hoof/lower leg'... erm yes, if you have a bad farrier and if you jump the socks off your horse when its young.

Breed responsibly, don't breed a horse predisposed to navicular, with upright pasterns or flat feet.
Train responsibly, don't hammer your horse on concrete or excessively jump it as a 4yr old.
Manage responsibly, feed for healthy hooves and get a good bloody farrier!!

Yes, you will buy horses that have these problems already - but work to change the mindset, instead of blaming it on shoes... or it will never change. Go barefoot by all means, but don't damn shoes while you're at it.


Yes, his heels were low in that picture, and funnily enough, they've improved since he's been shod. His frog quality has also improved (possibly because its level with the shoe (instead of taking the pressure on the bars) its broader and more solid, not crumbly like it used to be. I must take some pictures.

[intouch]

Please note that I do not claim to be an expert in this subject, just an enthusiast with a bit of learning, so you don't need to feel I am getting at anyone. I don't damn shoes - or farriers - when they are doing a good job.

I did say that with a good farrier, your horse might never have a problem, but at the same time, it is said with some truth that 90% of horses that die before their teens are put down because of lameness, and 90% of lameness is in the foot. Sadly, some farriers believe that the more horses they can shoe in a day, the better that makes them.

The hooves in the picture are almost certainly showing signs of low grade if not full blown laminitis, the indentations just below the coronary band and at the toe would indicate this, along with the irregular hair line.

The heels are underrun which probably contributes to the atrophied frog, and there is white line disease all the way around, which will have weakened the walls. There appears to be good concavity, and I would say that with a good trim and management, even at this stage, this horse would have come right without shoes.

Many horses appear to be feely the first time or two that they have the extra weight of a rider, they soon adapt. Just like you have to get the rest of the body fit for the work required, the feet need to be included in the fitness regime.

There's no excuse for anyone to cause their horse suffering, with the variety of hoof boots and so on available, and advice on feeding and environment.

It's certainly not for everyone, there is so much research and new knowledge coming up in all aspects of horse management, not just hoof care, that many people will want to stick to the tried and tested, even if sometimes it doesn't work. But there's always room for debate.

[Rips]

The hooves in the picture are almost certainly showing signs of low grade if not full blown laminitis, the indentations just below the coronary band and at the toe would indicate this, along with the irregular hair line.

I'm sorry Intouch but you are way out of line - this is not the first time you have tried to tell me my horse is suffering from LGL or laminitis on the board.

The first time there wasn't even pictures.

3 different vets and 4 different farriers have seen/treated him in the past 2 years on numerous occasions (he's been moved around with me) and not one of them have suggested this. Apart from the fact that he is not lame or footy in any way shape or form, has no heat or digital pulse and has had x-rays (!!!) taken about 6 months after those photos were taken.

The first time you said it, I had already arranged a vet/farrier to see him that week. Mostly because I was so upset by your assumptions, when they were out I asked them specifically about LGL or perhaps that his laminae sensitive layer was larger or closer to the hoof wall then normal. They laughed. And this is an experienced equine specific vet, a personal friend that I work closely with and study under.

I take it as a personal insult that you have again suggested it.

Were his hooves 'perfect' in that picture, not by far.

Did I not say I got him as an untouched 3yr old with no hoof care whatsoever?

Did I have a reason to put shoes on him at that point - no.

Was his hoof quality subsequently fixed and improved with shoeing - yes.



I did say that with a good farrier, your horse might never have a problem, but at the same time, it is said with some truth that 90% of horses that die before their teens are put down because of lameness, and 90% of lameness is in the foot. Sadly, some farriers believe that the more horses they can shoe in a day, the better that makes them.


Erm, yes - but laminitis is the biggest contributor to that statistic, and the most prevalent form of laminitis is metabolic! Nothing to do with hoof care!! Remedial shoeing helps with the treatment but is rarely the cause!

[bob1984]

All members please remember that opinions and experiences offered on this forum are simply that - Opinions! If you have a medical condition that you are unsure of please consult the relevant professional be it a vet or a farrier.

Members however are free to express their own personal opinions.

[Nick]

Just to add to that, this is an internet forum where every one has a right of reply. If you post something up, you can't complain if someone replies and that reply lies within the remit of the charter. If you don't agree with a reply, then just ignore it! We do not like people on the forum preventing other users from engaging in a discussion.

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

well said Nick and Bob. If you choose to post pictures of your horse while asking a question, naturally people will reply and give advice or opinions. If you don't agree with those replies fair enough but appreciate that someone took the time to reply and only did so because you posted these pictures and questions in the first place.

[intouch]

Thought this article might be helpful?

http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/adviceandinfo/read_147_Introduction-to-working-with-an-Equine-Podiatrist.html

[Knot69]

once again thanks intouch for the helpful and inspiring articles
I've had a wile to think about why i felt it was important for my horses to go barefoot.first of all after talking with other people that were and were thinking about going bare.i herd lots of reasons the main one being financial which i have since decided that this would be no reason to go bare as it can end up costing just as much in the short term any way.to be honest i too was interested by the thought of saving a few bob.which led me to start looking in to pros and cons. having a good farrier he was the first person i talked to who promptly laughed and asked what magazine i had got that from.
so i had to look further afield to find some answers so look i did i then spent some time trekking the side of a mountain in Spain on barefoot horses. and was astounded by the fact that the horse i was riding had better traction on all surfaces especially smooth slippery ones. i also notice that my horse was not looking for soft ground that some of the other shod horses were. again astounded.
so now i no it was quite possible for hoses to go bare i was really considering the option .but it wasn't till i spent some time with a lot more people and horses that i realised that the only reason my horses had shoes on was because that is what i was taught to do but the more i learnt the more i realized that the shoes were doing more harm than good and now i have had to change yet another set of learned belief's.
i am now left wondering what i will learn tomorrow and how much that will affect my horseman ship.

[Welsh Girl]

To be honest I wasn't expecting to save money on the barefoot option, but in these times that is an incentive!

I too have noticed with the welsh ponies and cobs out hunting at home, that they had much better grip than shod horses. I wondered why this was and the only common thing was that the ponies and cobs where all unshod. Now you could put it down to ponies and cobs just being accustomed to the terrain but many of those horses had also been born to that environment so how come once they where shod they slid around. I asked my farrier back home about this and he pointed out that shod horses needed studs when they where jumping and yet unshod ponies where jumping 3'9" courses unshod on grass.

I found this thread on this very forum: http://www.stabletostable.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409

Its something to think about! People have been riding horses for thousands of years. Apparantly a horseshoe was found in the tomb of King Childeric, who died in 460 AD that was similar to the shoes we use now. But according to Xenophons book metal shoes weren't nailed onto hooves in ancient times, this didn't happen untill the sixth century. So how on earth did the horses of that time cope? Apparently they wore leather boots on long marches to prevent overwear. Shoeing for need as opposed to habbit?

I'm not in the anit-shoeing camp, but I do wonder how much of what we do to our horses is out of learned habbit.

[osteosam]

Theres some really interesting stuff on this site too, particularly about peripheral loading of the hoof (what happens when a shoe is nailed to the wall of the hoof) and some interesting case studies on rehabilitation of some pretty bad hoof problems.

I'm not pro or con barefoot trimming, but I think there is an awful lot to think about when it comes to what actually goes on with traditional shoeing.

Anyway, here's the page:

http://www.swedishhoofschool.com/

[Knot69]

this is very good site that explains allot about barefoot
http://www.hoofnexus.com/HoofModel.htm

[girl2]

I am actually quite amazed by some of the stuff I have read on his post.

I would like to stress firstly, that any qualified farrier in this country or the UK must undertake a 4 year apprenticeship to become qualified. They have a yearly practical and theoretical assessment before they can progress to the next year and final exams that they must pass.

Ireland as it stands has nothing in place to educate, to facilitate, train or anything otherwise - the barefoot trimmers. The UK at present is trying to get legislation in place so as that anyone who wants to become a barefoot trimmer undergoes a three year course that will educate them properly. Because as it stands, any barefoot trimmer today can simply attend a weekend course and then call themselves a barefoot trimmer.

There is a whole big pile of difference between a farrier and anyone who claims that they are qualified as a barefoot trimmer.

Firstly Knot 69:

It is a farrier's ultimate goal to ensure a foot is dressed adequately for comfort - be it for the fitting of a shoe or for the animal to go without shoes.

Your next statement completely almost knocked me over - where you state that the hoof is shaped to the shoe - under NO circumstances would ANY qualified farrier in this day and age fit a foot to a shoe. It is bad practice as well as unnecessary. I will explain. Yes, you are right that the majority of horseshoes are mass produced today. The decent quality horseshoe manufacturers know their jobs - shoes are manufactured to shapes, designs and specifications to fit horses feet - not the other way around. A decent horseshoe will need very little adjustment to the foot. Nail holes in shoes are pitched at degree levels to allow the least possible amount of damage to the foot, and slim nails can be used, where required.

Rips, I am certainly seeing what you are saying.

Intouch - I would tend to disagree with some of your statements.

I would like to comment on the amount of times I have heard of instances where barefoot trimmers have left horses feet so badly butchered that the amount of work to try and fix them its sometimes impossible. Horseowners need to take this into consideration.

Now for the facts, and I hope this interests you all:

There is a new book being launched onto the market at this very moment. It is a book called "The Mirage of the Natural Foot" - Science and Snake Oil in the Barefoot Trimming Debate. It is an independent review - it is a self funded investigation by a very well respected and educated Farrier - one of the few who has achieved Fellowship of the Worshipful Company of Farriers. There are no outside influences here - being self funded it means there are no financial gains for anyone, so the man only has to tell the truth. There is a lot of research and facts in this book. It is independent. I have been very lucky to have a sneek preview and I think there are going to be a lot of people's mind's opened by what has to be said. This book will be available in Ireland very shortly.

This book tells people the truth about shoeing horses compared to the barefoot trimming method. I think for everyone who is interested in this subject - this would be a fine read.

[Knot69]

thanks for your input very interesting .i am awaiting a copy of this book and will have my own opinions I'm sure .and I'm sure there are good farriers as there are good barefoot trimmers . i can only comment on my own experiences and will never have shoes put on any of my horses ever again after seeing the benefits first hand .and not just on my own horses but on many others too. i believe that nailing a shoe to a horses foot just so we can work them harder and longer is wrong but that is just my opinion.

[intouch]

Great to see the barefoot debate is alive and well after all this time!
If you want to read some hilarious slagging off about barefoot, http://www.farrier-giles.co.uk/ is your man.
Be interested in reading this new book, it's only $10 so certainly not exorbitant. This is all I could come up with on google - Knot69, where did you order your copy?
This was all I could find on google -

"The Mirage of the Natural Foot
Written by Chris Gregory
Thursday, 11 February 2010 22:08
This is the end of the 4th day of the Farrier Blacksmith Course at Heartland Horseshoeing School. It has been a great time, made more so by my good friend Dr. Mike Miller, MD, CJF, FWCF, coming for the week. We have had a great class with folks from Ireland, Australia, Canada, and all over the US.

Today was made even better by the arrival of Dr. Miller's book. He wrote a book titled, The Mirage of the Natural Foot. Science and Snake Oil in the Barefoot Trimming Debate. This book is Mike's FWCF Thesis, and talk about giving you some good defense from having to do 4-point trimming when you don't believe in it. This is a great book, and I think that the majority of great farriers out there will do well to have a copy to help their favorite vet see the light. If you want one, you can find Mike Miller on facebook, or email him at docfarrier@gmail.com This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it . He is selling this fantastic book, full color photos, and extremely professionally done by D&B Printing in Olathe, KS. for $10. It is more about getting the word out than it is about money for Mike, as those that know him can attest. Anyway, I thought there would be a bunch of good farriers on this site that would be thrilled to hear about this."

It's from the farrier and hoofcare resource centre.

This is a comment from a barefoot trainer who attended the LANTRA consultations - It doesn't sound as if they are lowering their game!

'While at first sight, it seemed that having to share units with the farriers would be a real pain, it has in reality turned out to be a godsend. Firstly it means no-one can claim that the most important parts of our standard are somehow weaker than the farriers'. But most importantly, it has meant that we have had input into the farriery NOS. It has become quickly apparent that we are working to higher standards in some areas and that has forced the farriery standard to be updated to take into account our higher standards! For example, the word 'humane' has now been inserted into the farriery standard everywhere where it mentions handling horses - a massive win.

Sadly some of the things we wanted to change in the farriery standard aren't going to happen this time around. The farriers are constrained by the structures of the modern apprentice scheme and so are unable to add in significant amounts of new teaching work. We wanted to include for example a unit on equine behavioural psychology (understanding for example how not to ruin a horse's behaviour when working with it). This unit will be a core part of our standard but will become an optional extra for farriers (aimed at being covered as CPD for existing farriers). Each NOS is reviewed every 3 years so it will be interesting to see if pressure is applied to the farriers to improve their standard further once ours becomes well known! "

As I said in my earlier post, I am not an expert here, Just facinated by the equine foot and have studied it for the past 8 years. I don't trim, but all my horses have been barefoor for 8 years and in that time I have found no reason to put shoes on any of the 12 of them.
But feel free to disagree!

[rambling]

Girl2 , To be fair to the spirit of debate , I'm not sure you can call a book written by a Fellow of the Worshipful Company of Farriers "independant".

"I believe that nailing a shoe to a horses foot just so we can work them harder and longer is wrong but that is just my opinion." Knot69
I understand what you are saying but I don't feel the work I ask my horse to do is wrong (hacking in walk with a bit of trot and a couple of short canters, most days over very varied natural terrain with some roadwork, occasional RC shows and Trec). You could of course say that working an animal at all is wrong. Horses are bred to do a job for us if we didn't work them we would have to reduce the numbers to some specimens in Zoos and National Parks.

I don't believe and neither does my farrier that my horse's feet would stand up to his working and living conditions ( out 24/7 for 6 or more months 11/7 the rest of the year) without some form of protection, even after a transition period , so he is shod. I don't think that I am doing wrong by him.

I follow the debates on various forums and have read Jaime Jackson's Natural Hoof Care which was very convincing and look forward to reading Dr Millers book . I have ridden horses in Argentina who were unshod and had really well calloused feet which gave them superior grip when crossing stepping stones and were well up to the rocky terrain. I have also seen Barefoot horses in this country very footsore even in a " Paradise Paddock" and in need of bute to do a minimal amount of work.

I just don't believe that one system suits all horses in all conditions. I have the greatest of respect for my Farrier's knowledge and experience and no more than I would have an apprentice Farrier trim and shoe my horse without supervision would I have a Barefoot Trimmer with a very short training trim my horse or worse still do them myself after a few weekend courses. Any way thats my opinion but its a very interesting debate.

[Napoles]

Ok - I am very slow to get into this debate, because it always turns out so heated.... but as with any of these things the issue is that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Unfortunately, new departures like Barefoot Trimming generally tend to be explored by people who are, in general, new to horses and as a result, these people don't have enough experience to be able to tell whether they are in fact doing their horses a favour or not.

I have seen and heard about horses who were practically crippled by a supposed Barefoot Trimmer (who would have fallen under the half day course graduation process) and unfortunately the inexperienced but well-meaning owner thought that they were doing their horse the world of good simply because they didn't know any better.

Any experienced horseperson would have been able to see in an instant that the trimmer was clueless, but unfortunately an inexperienced person might not have.

I am not against barefoot - we have a 5 yr old at home in light work without shoes, but I am against the lack of education and the breathtaking arrogance that some brand new horseowners exhibit when making choices for their new purchase.

Spending hours on Google or reading up books on a subject, while worthy and commendable, is no substitute for experience and please don't be too proud to take advice from old-fashioned producers who have spent their lives with horses. Believe it or not, you can learn an awful lot more from an enlightened horseperson than from Google.

Sorry, rant over, but when I see and hear about people who have just bought their first horse, berating vastly experienced people for choosing to put shoes on their horse, it really irritates me. Leave the arrogance at home and we might all get along!

[intouch]

"when I see and hear about people who have just bought their first horse, berating vastly experienced people for choosing to put shoes on their horse, it really irritates me. Leave the arrogance at home and we might all get along! "
Couldn't agree more, Napoles - but a lot of old-fashioned producers can be blinkered and opinionated when it comes to challenging tradition.
Just to clarify - I'm a BHSAI (1962) and EFI Level 1 coach (2003 or thereabouts), my first husband was a master farrier as was his father, he taught me a lot about farriery, I have attended courses and seminars by 4 different barefoot trainers (3 of whom were originally farriers) and have just about every book ever published on barefoot on my shelves - I wish I had all that knowledge in my head, not just on my shelves!
When we were training for BHSAI we believed we were doing it "to make a better life for horses". Each of us has to do this in the way we see fit - but it's great to have a forum where we can argue our point!

[Napoles]

Intouch, I was absolutely not referring to you personally - just making a general statement about people that I have come across. I am well aware that you are passionate as well as educated and experienced in this subject. I am referring to the large amount of people out there who are not unfortunately and this is where the problems happen.

(FWIW I am a BHSAI also and xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:D)

Other details removed to protect privacy..

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

@ Knot - to be honest I am confused that you feel that "nailing a shoe to a horses foot just so we can work them harder and longer is wrong" - right so where do we draw the line? Is it wrong to put tack on them and ask them to bend their will to suit ours? Is it wrong to confine them in paddocks or stable to suit us? Is it wrong to ask them to carry the weight of a human on their back? This is why I get so annoyed when I hear the likes of "natural" horsemanship or "its more natural".

Lets be brutally honest whats natural for a horse is to be out wild to roam, to graze and to fight or flight for survivial. Or really - its what was natural to them - We have domesticated them over years and years and they are no longer these wild animals anymore, yes they will still hold their natural tendencies and traits but when I hear people banging on about one thing being more natural that the other I think a lot of it is just obselete and selective reasoning.

At the end of teh day no matter what type of horsemanship you choose to follow we are all trying to do the same thing - to bend an animals will to suit our own. Even if you argue its about the 'partnership' etc fair enough but you are still asking the horse for something aren't you.

Rambling your point about zoo exhibits hit the nail on the head for me. If we are not to ride / work/ saddle / compete/ hack horses then what purpose do they then serve? To live as pets or field ornaments? How many people do you know who will spend money to keep a horse just to look at it? Or should we go mad and let them out loose and wild and natural and marvel at the new traffic jam on the M50?

Napoles I total argee about the arrogance thing and no that is not a dig at anyone here its just a general feeling you often get about people embracing "natural" horsemanship or barefoot and its total evangelistical there is a vibe of looking down on those that are still so ignorant and unenlightened and doing things in a different way. I think its an awful pity as rather than encouraging people to learn more about these techniques it puts them off and paints a really condascending picture. There are a lot of things I do with horses such as groundwork techniques that can and are classes as "natural horsemanship" when really its just my way of doing things its not more natural than anyone elses!

To be honest its something i really like about Trec, it embraces the relationship between horse and rider and allows you free choice over what you do or dont wear or use and the methods you use to train or execute something but there is no one looking down on you for choosing to use or do something different to them

When it comes to barefoot trimmers vs farriers I think anyone can write a book for either side of the fence. Sadly you see bad people in all professions so the same will ring true for farriers and also trimmers. There are a lot of experienced and respected farriers and trimmers out there so its disappointing to think someone can attend a quick course and start practiscing badly and incorrectly as it brings down the whole profession. You don't just see this in trimming - you see it in all industries where there is a section or offshoot within the industry that is unregulated and not bound by as much or any legislation as the conventional area.

Think about it - in many magazines or papers you hear about a half day course that qualifiers you to give botox / apply gel nails / inject cosmetic fillers etc - where something is less regulated sadly there will always be companies and people out there that exploit it! A qualified and experienced accupuncturist (who did a four year course to become one!) told me a frightening story about a doctor she worked with a few years back who decided to start doing accupuncture without training - he got away with legally it as he was a qualified doctor and the law was at that time not clear on who could prcatice it or not - she came in and found undisposed needles and areas where it was clear he had drawn blood :eek:

[Marian06]

thanks for your input very interesting .i am awaiting a copy of this book and will have my own opinions I'm sure .and I'm sure there are good farriers as there are good barefoot trimmers . i can only comment on my own experiences and will never have shoes put on any of my horses ever again after seeing the benefits first hand .and not just on my own horses but on many others too. i believe that nailing a shoe to a horses foot just so we can work them harder and longer is wrong but that is just my opinion.

maybe you have come across people in your experiences, but, vast majority of us who shoe tend are in fact keeping in mind the horses' well being and welfare by doing so. I beg to differ on your opinions, but, from personal experiences, there's no way any of my horses would compete, hunt or do roadwork without shoes. My oldest horse will go lame without shoes aswell and pretty much always has to wear eggbar shoes, all year round, and has done so even while out in the field for the past 5 months for the winter. I would never jepardize his safety nor comfort by leaving him unshod. Barefoot doesnt work and wont ever work for all horses.

[Welsh Girl]

"There is nothing new under the sun"

I forget where this saying comes from but I think it has relevence to this debate. As I have said before, perhaps not here I'm not sure, it is not uncommon for horses to be ridden and worked without shoes. Normally I would call this barefoot, but lately I was corrected and now it seems this term applies strictly to horses that have been attended by a Barefoot trimmer otherwise they are just unshod.

I am considering barefoot for one of my riding horses as I think it may be of benefit for this individual. I have been in touch with a solid sensible individual who is happy to answer my questions and point in the direction of some solid facts. Another horse on my yard is most certainly not suitable and is not even pasture sound without shoes. I treat my horses individually as far as time and money allows. However I feel I have to agree with above posts that there seems to be an attitude from some "camps". I have been on the receiving end of some rather passionate and rude people and in the past have been unable to explore this subject to any length as my questions on the validity of their information made them angry.

I too come from a background of horse professionals. I explored Natural Horsemanship in the UK during its appearance in the 1990's and did not like what I saw then or perhaps it was simply the people that brought it. I have since been lucky to come across more "traditional" forms of what we now call Natural Horsemanship with people who must use horses to make a living due to the nature of the environment they live in. This has led me to look back at the things my perants instilled in me. I was lucky in that the people in my past where solid horsepeople who had used horses to make a living but I feel they did it with respect. The horses where happy and healthy and did not suffer from many of the conditions that seem to prevail now in leisure horses such as COPD. This horsemasnhip is ancient, almost as ancient as the species itself, no matter what you try and badge it with it still comes down to using a different species for our own ends.

*My comments are my opinion, are not aimed at any individual on this board and are not intended to offend only to contribute to the discussion* :)

[Napoles]

Couldn't agree more. Very well said.

[Molasses]

Like all things horsey, generalisations are probably a bad idea. I'm finding it interesting to read everyones input and its largely open minded. I just have my own meagre working experience and my own very humble opinions:blushing:

Yes I believe horses are healthier barefoot……..living on grassy plains, wild and free just as I’d be healthier too living on a tropical island, bathing in waterfalls and eating fresh fish and fruit and never having to sit in traffic.

Except I don’t got no tropical island! Dammit!:sniggers:
And my horse don’t got no grassy savannah! Dammit!!:sniggers:

The horse is the ultimate arbiter of the success or failure of the barefoot versus shoes debate. Yes it suits some, but not others – otherwise we as humans would never have come up with the ‘shoe’. Afterall we didn’t start shoeing horses just for fun – it was because we domesticated them and started to ask ‘more’ of them.

I have experience of working barefoot horses, one situation worked another didn’t.

A station in oz with standardbred types where 90% of them had great feet due to the terrain they worked on and were paddocked on the same, kind sandy terrain, having a talented trimmer on hand all the time and having only light cattle work being asked of these horses. Barefoot = Huge Success!

I also have experience of a particular QH stud where the owner was a barefoot fanatic and some of his horses were suffering – grassy paddocks versus rocky trails– made for ouchy horses, bad feet and a groom (me) who didn’t like her job. Barefoot = Not so good!

The problems in these debates always arises when people apply generalisations….best to keep an open mind to both sides and to back away slowly go eat some chocolate and hug a horse. - :sniggers: same cool disclaimer as Welsh-girl applies to me too :sniggers:

[Knot69]

OK so a lot has been said since i last visited and most of it is makes a lot of sense i do realise that horses are bread by us for specific reasons and uses and are around in abundance for that reason.i also no that in an ideal world we would all like to live perfect lives but what would be perfect for some would be seen as hell by others.I have been studying hard in many different medias in order to discover What is working and not working in the barefoot world.and find the thoughts and opinions of long time horse people especially conventionally minded horsemanship very helpful in making me really think about what i am learning. As people in the barefoot circles can be very mater of fact about there beliefs. I try not to take any advice as gospel as i often then find out by my own experiences that it was way of the mark.
OK I'm going to try and address somethings i feel you mite have some better in site than me.
shoes:don't get me wrong I'm not anti shoe per say they obviously enable many horses and owners to do things that would not be possible otherwise.But saying that i wouldn't put shoes on my horses to do something i just wouldn't do it if it was hurting there feet. my choice and only my opinion.
horses that are foot sore with out shoes:This again is only my opinion. This would start alarm bells ringing in the farriers vets and barefoot professionals i have talked to over the years.as there must be an underlying foot problem being masked by the shoe and would warrant further investigation.again only my opinion.
barefoot and unshod:have seen hundreds of both and are in deed a world apart. One being a hoof maintained in a state of what would be natural ware pattern in the wild the other being the lack of shoes.

[CaoimheD]

I'm not for or against barefoot. i do believe though that there is no difference between barefoot and shoeless, this may be my ignorance, but just my opinion also. I think that a farrier and a barefoot trimmer are basically one in the same just with different titles. I think that shoeing has an extreme importance in the management of a horse, although not all horses require shoes i know it is necessary for others to have them. Yes back in the evolution stage horses never wore shoes, bt they were also never riding and never lived long either.

If barefoot is as important or benifical to all horses as it can be made out to be then shouldnt the farrier schools be encouraging ppl to keep their horses barefoot, or developing shoes that are as less effective / more natural for horses.

I keep some of my horses barefoot purely because they pull their shoes off constantly or their feet just dont seem to do well with shoes. BUT I have all my competition horses shod. This is not so i can ride them till they go no more but purely to preserve their feet. I cant see jumping without shoes ever working for jumping on grass, barefoot just does not asure the same grip.

I would be interested though if a shoe that was close to barefoot was on the market once it was not priced like diamonds and provided the same benefits as shoeing..

Hope i've not thread on any toes..

[jennyh]

I think that a lot of people believe that the only difference between a farrier and a trimmer is the title. you are not alone in thinking that. There are quite alot of differences really. Especially in regards to pathologies ie laminitis and navicular.

If barefoot is as important or benifical to all horses as it can be made out to be then shouldnt the farrier schools be encouraging ppl to keep their horses barefoot, or developing shoes that are as less effective / more natural for horses.

I think that a lot of farriers are starting to realise the benefits of barefoot, and do recommend it to those clients whos horses would do well without shoes. But there is also a lot of farriers who still believe that for a horse to be ridden or competed, they need shoes. I dont think that it has anything to do with farrier schools reccomending barefoot. Farrier schools teach you to shoe a horse, wereas trimming courses teach you to trim. And the trim is different. Also, the information that a qualified trimmer is able to provide for a barefoot horse is not what a farrier learns. We as trimmers have to know about how everything affects the feet. We need to understand how nutrition, conditioning, hoof boots all affect the feet. And how to develope a good bare foot. If your horse is footy, whether its got weak structure or low grade lami, farriers tend to advise shoeing, as apposed to what would encourage a healthy bare hoof. I suppose farriers are starting to realise that barefoot can be beneficial, but as to encourage barefoot, that might take a lot longer.

There are a lot of alternatives to shoeing. There is so many types of hoof boots on the market, that there really is no reason to ever nail a shoe on a horse. They protect the feet from excessive wear, whilst allowing optimal performance.

As for competing on grass, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Feet-First-Barefoot-Performance-Rehabilitation/dp/0851319602. This should help. The author events.