Forensic Medical Examination Office

[jennyh]

http://www.bitlessandbarefoot.com/all-about-going-bitless.php

Interesting article written by Alexander Nevzorov, based on scientific findings about the effects of the bit. Its not a NH vs traditional post. Just thought i would put this up seperate from the other post, so they stay on track.
If someone has an article about the effects of a bitless bridle, (not hackamore) then please feel free to post.

[harvey]

Perhaps when bitless is allowed in dressage competitions I may take a more serious look at the effects etc.

For now I need to ride in the same (or similar) tack that I'm going to compete in.

Thanks for keeping our minds open though, it's always good to get more than one side of the argument.

[Napoles]

It is an interesting piece and although written in a slightly dramatic manner that takes somewhat from the cold, scientific approach, it certainly gives pause for thought. If bitless bridles were allowed in competition, i would certainly use one.

[Super*Nuka]

Okay I'm gonna admit I havent read the whole article through but the only thing with research like this or any research - that sometimes when you start off with an aim to prove or disprove something, you can generally find something that backs it up. I'm sure if another study was done to find out of the benefits of bits, it could have different results!

Think of all the 'tea give you cancer' no wait 'tea cures cancer' researches that come out every day of the week - in the immortal words of Homer Simpson, ' you can prove anything with facts'. :lol:

Sorry but just to play devils advocate on this one! Not saying its wrong at all but just throwing it out there - personally, again if they were allowed in competition & I had a reason, I have no issue with bitless bridles - would actually love to try one out, but as I've already said, not without the relevent back up & training that goes with it :nod:

[fat frog]

very interesting..
but like the others have said i would definately use them if they were allowed in competitons.
i would love to try one though :nod:

[harvey]

not without the relevent back up & training that goes with it :nod:

I think this is a very valid point. I wouldn't be too keen to start down the bitless road alone. My instructors ride bitted and teach bitted. Perhaps if bitless was more mainstream it would be easier to understand the whys and wherefores.

However, I still have huge respect and admiration for the classical and more modern trainers who (mostly) all ride bitted. It would take some argument, and discomfort from my horse, to have all this turned round.

I'm not disputing the comfort factor for horses, but I believe my horse is comfortable in his current bridle combo.

[jennyh]

im glad your open to it napoles. I wish that somehow we could get rules changed to allow it in dressage. I read somewhere that the french translation for 'on the bridle', was wrongly translated to 'on the bit'. Not sure how acurate this is, but it may have influenced the rules differently.
I think that if rules were to change for all competitions, maybe it would open the door for a lot more riders to try it.
As for research into the benefits of the bit, although interesting, would probably look more at how the bit effects the way of going, rather than how it effects the bit. You only have to look at horses and understand how sensitive the mouth is to realise that the bit will hurt. You dont need to be a scientist to work that out.
If u look at how the bit effects the sensitive parts of the mouth, after all, the mouth is one of the most sensitive parts of a horse, i dont think you could find any physiological benefits for the horse.
If someone knows of any, let us know.

[Ebyss]

Haven't read the article yet, but will do so even though I actually physically dread reading anything by Nezorov. His views can be so extreme and, as Napoles said, dramatic (and sometimes contain rather spurious explanations of learning behaviour that makes my brain feel like I'm rubbing it against a cheese grater) but often he has a good point to make. Has a few whacky followers which always helps :D

I would totally support the introduction of bitless in competitive dressage.. actually.. wasn't there someone who got special dispensation to ride in a headcollar because their horse had a facial injury or something? An American lady iirc. Like anything though, bitless is just as open to abuse as bitted. To see a horse ridden by Nuno Oliveira or Anja Beran, in their massive double bridles with the lightest, most subtle contact ever, is a joy and something I aspire to. As always, it depends on the hands at the end of the reins - that's where the damage occurs.

[jennyh]

As with what you said Super Nuka, i think you do make a point. 'tea give you cancer' no wait 'tea cures cancer'. The thing is, it only takes you to look properly at the action the bit has on the mouth. The only time the bit doesnt hurt the horse is when it isnt used. So im not anti bits, just anti how the bit is used in most circumstances.

In case others are wondering, i will explain how i went down the bitless route.
I bought a pony a few years ago because she was going to be sold to a dealers cus no one but me would or could ride her. She was very forward going and if you slackened the reins slightly, she was off.
I tried her in a pelham for a while, and she did steady up, but she still would rush off at any given oportunity.
I thought i could try her without the bit to see what happened. I put a standard headcollar on her, and long reined her for a while before riding her.
When i thought i had brakes, i started riding her. The difference was quite something. she would still rush, but was a lot calmer and easier to stop.
So i started doing a bit of research into bitless, came across Dr Robert Cook, and immediately started riding in a Dr cooks bridle.
At the start, i hadnt the slightest idea how to transition a horse to bitless, but with the dr cooks, it was suprisingly easy as all the horses accepted it.
I still rode what i would call traditional english, and the horses where fine with it.
It wasnt till i went traveling and ended up in NZ where i learnt all i could about riding bitless. It really was a revelation.
Since ive been home, ive transitioned a few horses to bitless, and backed a few bitless.
I understand that it can be hard trying to get interested in something when you have no one to go to for help. I still struggle sometimes because there isnt any one i can go to for help with my horses, bar one person. Its not easy because the imformation just isnt there. I think if it was more widely recognised and used, more and more people would be prepared to take the leap, and we would have a lot more instructors to help us.
Its been a very positive thread so far, im glad their are people open to it if it wasnt for rules. I thought i might have been in for another bashing lol.

As with double bridles and stuff, i use to look at a horse ridden in a double as impressive. Unfortunately not anymore. The mouth was never designed to hold 1 bit, never mind two.
The horse in a double will learn quite quickly that its not a good idea to lean on it. This means the horse will be very light in your hand. That is the response you want, but not the reason you want it.

I dunno, i sort of thought that if people learnt how the bit effects the mouth in such a negative way, them they wouldnt want to use one. But i guess its such a new concept to most people to take away that control from the mouth that people still believe the bit is harmless.

PS, why was this thread moved twice. Its nothing to do with NH, its about bits and bridles. Putting it in the NH section means fewer people will see it.
I would have thought horse welfare issues would have been general.

[xxkarenxx]

I haven't read the article because my computer is being a nuissance :cross: I would be interested in trying bitless if it were allowed in competition, although I'm not sure I would be fully relaxed without a bit :blushing: For the moment though, I wouldn't be inclined to try for 2 reasons, I don't have anyone to help me and I can't compete that way. I do think if the rules were changed a lot more people would ride dressage tests etc but I honestly can't see it happening anytime soon.

[bob1984]

Jenny - just as a matter of interest do you think it is easy for a horse to transition from a bit to bitless??

I ask because I have a friend who tried her horse bitless for a period last year and she and her instructor came to the conclusion that it was not helping the horse - more confusing her :nod: They thought it was harder for her to respond to the aids as she had been broken and trained all her life in a happy mouth snaffle. They gave it a few month but then reverted back to the snaffle and she is now happier than ever...

I should also mention, her instructor at the time had two horses ridden bitless on his yard but he said as they were broken to bitless it was aklot easie to them. Her owner did endless work on a long rein trying to use body weght and posiition to refine her aid... it just didnt seems to work with her horse...

Would be interested to hear if you have ever had a similar experience?

[Super*Nuka]

Thats really interesting aswell Bob, I think horses like routine & what they are familier with & as you say, if they havent been trained for bitless, I wonder how easy the transition is to bitless from bitted. I would say alot of horses are set in their ways aswell.. I know that all to well from Nuka :lol:

Just in terms of the pain issue what you mention with bits - if the action of the bit affects the horse in such a damaging & negative way, how do horse dentists not pick up on this? I've never meet a horse dentist that said that a horse is in a bad way being ridden bitted?? My dentist is out during the week actually - I might ask him more about this. He has shown me before how the action of the bit affects the horse & never before mentioned that it is negative :asksquestion:

[High_Stepper]

Jennyh is right in that horses learn to go bitless easily - all bf's horses are ridden in a bit or headcollar - they are not mutually exclusive and they are competition horses. Anyone remembers my last horse, now he was a speedy fella - I used to hack out in a headcollar and never had an issue.

But it will go pear shaped in the headcollar if you rely on your hands for balance by leaning as you must give and take and not 'hold' with them. I don't know about dr cooks as i've never tried one.

I think it is going to become more prevalent and mainstream, it is already happening!

[xxkarenxx]

That is interesting Bob :nod: I don't think Ispin would make the transition easily, she tends to hate change if it turns her little world upside down. I'm not sure I would cope too well without the security of a bit either :blushing: I have ridden her round the arena bareback and with a headcollar but I'm not sure for everyday riding I would feel that confident in it.

[jennyh]

I think that most horses can go succesfully bitless. I think that a few issues have to be taken into account though.
A horse or rider that relies on the reins for control of speed or head carriage may have a few teething problems, because the horse is not able to carry himself well without the rein contact. If a horse can go well in all paces on a slack rein will be a lot better to transition because they can carry themselves and respond better off the riders seat and leg aids better.
When you are going bitless, its important to train the horse on the ground to respond to the nose pressure really lightly. You have to be able to back the horse and bend him really lightly off the nose pressure, so that when you get on them, you can bend him both ways and back him up. If you cant bend, stop and back up on a really light pressure you wont have very god control should the horse decide to run away with you.
This is the reason i like the one rein stop. If you train this really well, should the horse decide to leave, you can bend him to a stop. The nose pressure will not be as powerful as the bit because its a lot less painfull, so if he doesnt stop and back up well and he decides to stop, if he still hashis head and neck in front of him he will be a lot stronger. At least with the bit you can pull the back teeth out in an emergency.
I believe you really have to have a higher standard of riding and training to ride bitless. Your horse has to be really light to the aids because you cant rely on the pressure of the bit in the mouth for your controls.
If you have a horse that is heavy in your hands or pulls, its very imporant to get him to lighten up and be soft on the contact or he will be heavy and lean on the nose. You also cant rely on using a stronger bit to improve your brakes, because a bitless bridle will always be milder than a bit.
So i guess its more to do with the trainin of the horse. If he can do all this in a bit, he should be easy to get bitless. But i guess you do need to know a bit about what you are looking for.
Long reining doesnt tend to work well with a bitless. The horse can learn to lean on the bridle too easily, so its better to train the horse on a loose rein to bend, stop and backup, and only when he is light for this, do you ever ride with a contact.
If this is done well, you should be able to trot, and by picking up the rein, the horse stops. Same in canter. If the horse is trained correctly and lightly, just by picking up the ren he will stop or bend from any pace.

[bob1984]

so do you suggest keeping the bit and training responsivness first before switching?

[Bobbi C]

very interesting read, again agree it's slightly dramatic but it wouldn't put me off. In fact I backed my horse and did a lot of her very early schooling using a bitless bridle. I feel this helped her really learn to read my body language as opposed to what my hands were telling her to do (no matter how quiet someones hands are there's always going to be some sort of message coming from them imo) and now that she's bitted 100% she is very much a horse that is ridden through the body rather than hand, in fact she can get quite upset if her mouth is interfered with beyond just having a good contact, to the extent I fully believe she'd plant someone if they pulled her mouth when riding :blushing: Maybe she would have been like that anyway if I'd bitted her 100% from the get-go, maybe she wouldn't. If bitless were allowed in competition I would deffo consider going back to using it but for now it's not, so a bit is must

[jennyh]

so do you suggest keeping the bit and training responsivness first before switching?

Not nessesarily. If you dont think your horse will be responsive enough to ride just in the bitless or halter, ride with the bit as well but make sure the reins are attached to the nose piece. I always do ground work with a horse before i ride them in a halter. I want to make sure they can bend, stop and backup before i ride them. If they are quiet and not likely to run away with me, then i just ride in halter. If i dont trust horse fully with no bit, i ride with a bit until the aids are very good and i can remove the bit.
So even a horse who is not very responsive in a bit, they can be trained to be very light without one quite easily. Sometimes more so. A horse can learn to resist the bit while training him, especially if its uncomfortable for him. But they tend to be very receptive to the nose pressure because if done correctly, it wont give them any discomfort. So a horse who gets tense or nervous in a bit can quite often become very relaxed and easy to train just by removing the bit.

To me bobbiC, i understand that your horse was trained in a bitless, which is great. If the rules permitted it, i feel that a lot more people would be trying it. But i feel that if my horse didnt like the bit being used, and tried to get a person off for using it, i wouldnt want to use it on them just so that i could compete. They are trying to tell us something and we ignore it just so we can compete.

[Bobbi C]

But i feel that if my horse didnt like the bit being used, and tried to get a person off for using it, i wouldnt want to use it on them just so that i could compete. They are trying to tell us something and we ignore it just so we can compete.

sorry, i didn't really make myself clear in my previous post, preggo brain! she doesn't mind the bit at all once whoever is riding her has nice quiet+soft hands and isn't swinging out of her mouth like you unfortunately see some people doing at all levels of riding. she is well able and happy to go in a good contact without any issue. i feel i know my horse well enough to know when she is happy and when she is not, she tends to wear her emotions on her sleeve, and believe me if she had an issue with the bit she would make it very clear :sniggers: however she loves her work and loves to compete, as i said all of which is done with a bit

[jennyh]

I was actually wondering if there would be any interest if i were to arrange some kind of demo with one of my horses.
If i could arrange a place handy for people, maybe someones yard, would any one want to come and see me riding bitless. I think it would be good so that people can see for themselves what it takes to ride bitless, ask questions about anything to do with training in a bitless. Sort of an imformation day or something.
I think it could be the start for opening peoples eyes to it and finding out about it and dispelling any myths around it.
If you would attend something like this, let me know. Might be able to arrange something for s2s folk. and any one else interested. It wouldnt be a clinic, i wouldnt ne teaching any one. Just be there so people can see a bitless horse in action.