Interesting article

[jennyh]

Just thought i would put this back to where i put it first time. Since when is horse welfare only interesting for people who train using NH methods? :confused:
I would have thought it was a topic every horseperson would have an interest in. Thats why i put it in general.

http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/1354/1339/

http://www.ethicalhorsemanship.com/2009/06/16/do-competition-horses-achieve-the-%E2%80%98five-freedoms-of-animal-welfare%E2%80%99/

[Roo]

Who exactly are you aiming these 'Interesting Articles' at??

My horse lives like a king, he has his 5 freedoms (and much more!)

Do you feel it is your duty to 'inform' and 'educate' the likes of me??

[admin1]

This thread was moved by a moderator.

Do not re-post a thread that has been moved back into the forum that it was moved from.

[intouch]

I find it interesting how some people on this forum immediately go on the defensive when equestrian ethics are broached. NO one is being "accused " of anything here - if you are in favour of the five freedoms, would it not be more agreeable to support them, rather than assume the poster is aiming the post at you personally?
I fully agree that it is an issue of general interest - look at the recommended reading on the second link, there is one book that might be loosely classed as NH, the others are all mainstream equestrian.

[newhughes]

I too am puzzled with regards to why there is an insistence on this being in the NH forum. It is important to speak out and raise awareness about unethical practices that are happening at the higher end of our sport, irrespective of whether we chose to follow 'traditional' methods or NH methods.

[Casperlady]

Its interesting I will admit I had never heard of the 5 freedoms ya learn something new everyday. I think thereare some extreme cases shown there and the majority of competitors would aim to enure their horses are comfortable with what they are doing. I will say about the 5 freedoms is that its not possible to ensure they are all observed, I mean you can aim to ensure your horse is free from discomfort, thirst and hunger etc, but horses will get injured even just in the field, infact any injuries any of mine have got is from their own stupidity while galloping around the field, or trying to jump a gate while tied to it.

[admin1]

The issue is over ignoring moderator rules.

If a moderator moves a thread and the poster believes it should not have been moved, ask the moderators. Do not promptly repost the thread in the forum that it was moved from.

[Millies_Mum]

This has been moved back here again due to it being replaced after a moderator had moved it. If the OP wishes to query as to why it was moved in the first place then send the query to the moderator who did the moving. The moderator will decide on whether the post should be reinstated where it was origionally or not.

Do not disregard a moderators actions without contacting them first as to why a decision has been made.

Members agree to abide by the rules when joining this forum and mods expect these rules to be upheld and do not tollerate backseat moderation.

[newhughes]

If a moderator moves a thread and the poster believes it should not have been moved, ask the moderators. Do not promptly repost the thread in the forum that it was moved from.

Fair enough!!

[jennyh]

Maybe if i knew who moved it, i would ask them. As i dont seem to be the only one wondering.

I really wish that this sort of stuff is in the minority. All you have to do is go to dublin horse show or any others to find the horses wearing all but the kitchen sink with there head strapped to their chest with draw reins. I was at a local show recently where there was affiliated jumping. I actually left because the standards were so poor. Horses pulled in the mouth, backs landed on with a thump, big bits in strong hands.
I really want to be able to love jumping, because i do it myself. But i cant stand to see the level of abuse that goes on, even at lower levels. I know people seem to think that this sort of stuff is rare, but its actually more the norm. Maybe if people realised that the less tack used, the better the partnership will be.

[termoncarragh]

Just for info Jennyh, there's a list of moderators here http://stabletostable.com/en/forum/ Took me two minutes to find it, but I'm happy to help if you had trouble locating it.

Also you can see under a person's username what their status on the Forum is, eg above you can see that Millie's Mum is a Moderator. I imagine it's pretty easy to query a moderator's decision on any issue (I myself have never needed too :halo:) but I find the moderation on this forum pretty light touch, to be honest. Hope that helps!

[Roo]

:rollseyes:
Cripes...........

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

Also you can see under a person's username what their status on the Forum is, eg above you can see that Millie's Mum is a Moderator.

Yup :nod: and funnily enough as moderators, we moderate the forum. As Millies Mum already advised everyone signed up to obey the forum rules and respect the moderators when they joined the forum. The forum is provided without charge and posting on it is a privledge not a right.

[jennyh]

Understood. Maybe we should be getting back to the topic, ive accepted my telling off so maybe we can leave it.

[xxkarenxx]

Hmm it seems to be another of those argument provoking articles. I suppose my horses are competition horses and I can safely say they do anjoy the "5 freedoms". In fact as I type, they are both in the field with lots of water and pain free. It has cost me a small fortune to get Ispin pain free and comfortable again so that she can return to what she loves to do.

I wish people who are so extreme in their views on what is wrong would just bugger off and leave people to do as they wish with their horses.

[bob1984]

OK I just read the article... but now I am simply confused :confused:

To the best of my knowledge (I say this as P cant speak!)- I can safely say I do everything I can to try and ensure P has the "Five Freedoms" This is the first time I have ever heard of them but reading through them - they seem like very common sense to me.

However then I read this:

"Figure 1. Horse is unable to escape the pressure on the mouth being produced in 4 ways: (1) a Pelham bit (the lower part is a lever, a chain acts in the horse’s chin groove"

OK - so now I use a pelham - where does that leave me??? The above piece implies that a horse is unable to escape pressure in a pelham - I believe this to be totally incorrect - the pressure is only there if the hands behind it are applying it. Also it should never be a constant pressure - I ride off the top rein and will use the bottom rein - If and when I need it - give and retake. I dont clamp down on the rein - why - because he would resist - and he is alot stronger than me :nod:

What I am trying to say is - time and time again I start to read similar articles to this and I agree with the fundamentals - but then they add in a throw away comment such as above - never does it say something like "In the wrong hands a pelham can cause unknown damage" It is always Pelham = evil :nod:

This is also all on the same horse who achieved his first 9 in a Dressage test on Sunday - all completed in a snaffle - so schooling is not as issue :D

Anyway just my ramblings.....

[jennyh]

I think what was meant was that the horses head was being held down by draw reins, not only by the pelham.

[bob1984]

Maybe I misread it then...

It did say in four ways however and this point was listed as the first one :nod:

I suppose its hard to know...

[Super*Nuka]

I dont think anyone has to be told the 5 freedoms of a horse - I think those of us who ride for pleasure could have told you that without any article, we are all just interested in keeping our horses healthy & happy & enjoying themselves.

The only issue I have with articles like this, is what Bob says, just because one person rides unnessecarily strong in a pelham or an American gag, doesnt mean that the problem is with that bit - its the hands that it is in.

Also, I think its unfair to say that its 'all to common' because if you were to weight up the percentage of riders that ride at that level where they feel they need to do this to their horses, to the amout of everyday people who ride for pleasure/fun or compete at a RC level, I think the percentage would be small. That does not mean I condone when excessive force is being used, but its not the gadget or bit that is the problem, its the hands its being used in. I think all the time the governing boards of our sport at the top levels are constantly trying to re-evalute the rules to ensure the utmost wellfare of high level competition horses at all times... but I dont think its fair to lump everyone into the same catagory, when the majority of us ride for pleasure/the odd rosette at no determent to our horses - whether using a pelham/draw reins/spurs or not.

[intouch]

Its interesting I will admit I had never heard of the 5 freedoms ya learn something new everyday.

I think if only one person has learned something new from the articles, it's been worth posting. I'm sure we all want to do the best for our horses on here, but it doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that sometimes ignorance or ambition get in the way.

The pelham, used correctly, is a valuable piece of kit, but using it along with a flash and/or martingale is not the correct use - at least it wasn't when I was training - but that was in the dark ages.

Congrats on your "9" bob1984!

Horses for Life is a widely read subscription emag with some great articles in it.

[Super*Nuka]

I think if only one person has learned something new from the articles, it's been worth posting.

I didnt say it wasnt worth posting :) I read it & it was indeed interesting but it wasnt anything that was revoluntary in its research. Okay fair enough, writing them down & calling them the 5 freedoms of a horse & presenting them like that - people might not have heard of it before but I think that its pretty much what all of us do for our horses on a daily basis! As CL said herself, they can do themselves injuries just hooning around in a field & that is their own choice, nothing to do with how they are kept... they have minds of there own after all.


I'm sure we all want to do the best for our horses on here, but it doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that sometimes ignorance or ambition get in the way.

I do agree & that what I stated above:
That does not mean I condone when excessive force is being used, but its not the gadget or bit that is the problem, its the hands its being used in

So I just feel that damning the gadgets can be the easy solution, I think damning the hands its in is more correct!

[intouch]

Absolutely!

Wanna see some REAL nasties?

http://www.hauteecole.10gb.ru/NHEEA/ATLAS/HR-Atlas-ENG-0706.pdf

[Super*Nuka]

Absolutely!

Wanna see some REAL nasties?

http://www.hauteecole.10gb.ru/NHEEA/ATLAS/HR-Atlas-ENG-0706.pdf


:eek:

Okay that is seriously inflammatory... I agree those images are horrendous but seriously they are all moments captured in time, I'm sure if you got my horse at the right second, he could have a wild look in his eyes but according to that document we shouldnt be riding horses at all and that everyone, with no exception is to blame for inflicting pain on a horse!

I think like any grouping of people, in any level of society, you get people who do good & bad.. not all goths are in a cult, not all kids who wear hoodies are up to no good ect so the same applies with the equestrian world, not all people who ride are out to inflict pain... Its says at the start is a collection of typical images from the equestrian world - nothing could be further from the truth :(

I'm really regretting looking at that now cause it really only shows one side of the story & make me feel really really ill :sad:

[Little-Miss-Muppet]

we could post videos / articles etc showing bad examples of people working with horses in all sorts of disciplines or techniques - why hold these people up as examples all the time?! Why not say fair play to those showing great horsemanship and partnership with their horse regardless of what discpline they choose?

I am really tired of the constant articles / links etc basically telling us all how cruel a bit is etc YOU might feel that way but how about respecting that not everyone feels the same way you do? Many (in fact the majority) of us choose to ride in a bit as you know on the forum - both those who practice what would be deemed NH methods and those who don't and I find it both condascending and inflammatory to imply or to tar us all with the same brush as people who haul the mouths off horses or to imply we are in need of education / that you way is always better or that we 'should' view these things to see things the same way you do and should stop using a bit as you think we don't know how to use one correctly.

If I were to post up pictures of someone hauling the nose off a horse with a rope halter or trimming its feet badly I doubt you would enjoy it. Had I posted something that put forward that what you do is wrong and your horse is not free unless you are doing what I am doing I doubt you would welcome the suggestion that you 'should' read it or that you should 'learn' from it. I don't and wouldn't because as far as I am concerned if people want to do things differently than I do fine work away just understand and respect methods vary its a love of horses that brings us together.

As for education one can only learn if they are willing to learn. I find the suggestion that I 'should' read something or that someone hopes I 'learn' from it really unnecessary. I am an adult, I enjoy learning but I reserve the right to choose what I practice with my horse and to choose in what format my education comes and from whom. What is interesting to one person can be simply a one sided biased piece with an agenda to someone else.

Whats priceless is the theory that one methods are above others etc at the end of the day we all do the same thing - we all train, keep or ride horses - while some people might use a bit and others use something around the nose of the horse the principle is the same - use the horse for leisure, sit on its back, have it do what you ask it to do, keep it in a place of your choosing. Lets face it if you truly wanted a horse to be 'free' you wouldnt want to be riding, training it or containing it at all would you? You would simply look out at it roaming the field with its mane down to its fetlocks and leave it alone. Now being that they are domesticated animals and Ireland hardly has wild prairies for the horses to roam on it probably wouldnt survive very long but thats another story

[Millies_Mum]

Due to the number of reports on this thread, I am now closing it.