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Lark
07-10-2011, 11:28 AM
Cavan and Goresbridge could really do with taking a leaf out of the Tattersalls book and start publishing sales results online.
It is very disappointing in this day and age.
Ah well will have to hang out for The Field tomorrow.

wiggy1
07-10-2011, 11:42 AM
think Cavan will put up results on there website--eventually.. they are bad though!!
but as prices were not brill..prob take there time!
i was at draught sale.. think prices bit better than same sale last year--still poor! gd ones will sell well still

Napoles
07-10-2011, 12:05 PM
I know! It drives me mad too that you can't get them anywhere online. :rant:

T-P
07-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Got the impression that Cavan this week was pretty dire.

rambling
07-10-2011, 03:43 PM
I sometimes feel its deliberate especially if the prices were very low and lots withdrawn unsold .Less people will see the results if they are just in The Field .

B.D.I's
07-10-2011, 04:03 PM
loved being able to see what unsold horses were reaching in price on the tatts page as it gives a better alround picture of sales and prices. its alright them saying good stock sell for good prices and that the average was beloe because the quality was poor but we need to see what breeding/sires are producing prices regardles of been sold or not. and because im nosey :sniggers:

rambling
07-10-2011, 04:12 PM
loved being able to see what unsold horses were reaching in price on the tatts page as it gives a better alround picture of sales and prices. its alright them saying good stock sell for good prices and that the average was beloe because the quality was poor but we need to see what breeding/sires are producing prices regardles of been sold or not. and because im nosey :sniggers:

Wouldn't that make an interesting project for some student , charting the prices the offspring of various sires reached in the ring sold or unsold and seeing how many in each price bracket and what percentage sold on the day.

I know gooduns will still sell at good prices but it may highlight other factors including the dams influence.

Lark
07-10-2011, 04:12 PM
but we need to see what breeding/sires are producing prices regardles of been sold or not. and because im nosey :sniggers:
+1 on both counts :nod: :D
I really really wanted to see how the Elite foals did yesterday :(

ruben
07-10-2011, 08:41 PM
+1 on both counts :nod: :D
I really really wanted to see how the Elite foals did yesterday :(

:sheep: I would love if there was a website showing sales results! Also thought it was very interesting to see in the Tatts results what price the unsold horses were making!

Jedy
07-10-2011, 08:41 PM
I personally would have brought home only a handful of foals. My favorite made over 8000. Arko III/Puissance/Diamond Serpent. Cruising colt let out unsold at 10000. Few 4000, 6000. Many unsold, but again, I thought the quality was very poor. Today though, was a disaster. No one around the ring. I wouldn't really go by the "unsold" prices. A lot of the time they're run up.

Highnwide
07-10-2011, 10:00 PM
Wouldn't that make an interesting project for some student , charting the prices the offspring of various sires reached in the ring sold or unsold and seeing how many in each price bracket and what percentage sold on the day.

I know gooduns will still sell at good prices but it may highlight other factors including the dams influence.

Those statistics are compiled and published in the Field sometime in January. The top 10 sale toppers for the previous year in each category- foals, yearlings, 3 yr olds, etc the price they made and the sire of each. Very interesting reading, I'll see if I have a copy of it.

Published sales results though only tell part of the story, many are sold outside the ring privately so wont feature in the results.

rambling
07-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Those statistics are compiled and published in the Field sometime in January. The top 10 sale toppers for the previous year in each category- foals, yearlings, 3 yr olds, etc the price they made and the sire of each. Very interesting reading, I'll see if I have a copy of it.

Published sales results though only tell part of the story, many are sold outside the ring privately so wont feature in the results.


Highnwide as you say its only half the story , I'm never going to be breeding but think for those that do it isn't really the top ten that matter as so few would be lucky to hit that jackpot but what the middling ones make .

wiggy1
10-10-2011, 11:44 AM
http://www.cavanequestrian.com/sales-reports.asp
Link above to last weeks Draught/Sport horse Sale... only ones that were sold..
pity wouldn't put all prices up--ie unsold horses!
Was a Draught Sale..think prices a little up-maybe 2-5%
Sport horse sale-looks to be a few good prices got..
Seems to be a market for well bred horses there! notice to breeders--bred your best mares to the best stallions--will leave a nice return

Talking to a man at draught sales-from midlands..said currently 9000 horses factoried so far this year-maintain get 11000 by year end..and maybe more next year!
so Fingers crossed the inferior bred horses are a going--leaving ireland will only the top left-get us back on the world stage of horse breeding--leading to good results in equestrian sport!

don't get me wrong--i hate seeing horse's being killed, is a disgrace! but we the irish people-horse lovers supposedly have only ourselves to blame, by breeding everything, in the boom time! was a joke!!! maddness--hopefully them days are pass!! rant over!!!!

B.D.I's
10-10-2011, 12:15 PM
so Fingers crossed the inferior bred horses are a going--leaving ireland will only the top left-get us back on the world stage of horse breeding--leading to good results in equestrian sport!!
unfortunatly we are also a nation of sellers and i fear many good stock will be sold abroad and we will have a massize gap as some good broodmares are being knackered or not bred from and this will take time to balance out. there should be some professions to keep some mares , youngstock in the country or we may be buying back progeny ourselves from abroad.

wiggy1
10-10-2011, 12:23 PM
bdi agree totaly--have stated that before on these forumns.. should be a job for the horse board/department of ag! to make sure the top mares/female offsprings are kept on this island--either by purchasing them-or by giving grants to breeders! can see us--with the draught breeding side anyway! people heading to england/usa for purchasing pure draught breeding stock....
irish are a very feckle nation--most do jump on the bandwagon, ie a good thing! and off again,when hits the rocks..
happens in all farming practise's..be it dairy/sheep/beef..

Bendihorse
10-10-2011, 05:13 PM
http://www.cavanequestrian.com/docs/wys.pdf

Young stock sale here.

Its so depressing. I put a lot of time and effort into my two who are well bred and taken care of and people just try and insult you by offering less than the covering fee. Im lucky that i have enough land to feed them and 10 more so im holding out... For what i dont know but id rather keep them myself than give them away to some opportunist.

Lark
10-10-2011, 08:12 PM
http://www.cavanequestrian.com/docs/wys.pdf

Young stock sale here.

Its so depressing. I put a lot of time and effort into my two who are well bred and taken care of and people just try and insult you by offering less than the covering fee. Im lucky that i have enough land to feed them and 10 more so im holding out... For what i dont know but id rather keep them myself than give them away to some opportunist.

I couldn't agree with you more. Stallions fees, Vets fees, Mares upkeep and care, more vets fees (vacs etc), farriers fees, not to mention the worry and heartbreak associated with breeding.
I would rather keep them too as oppossed to selling them for an insult.

hooves
10-10-2011, 10:01 PM
I couldn't agree with you more. Stallions fees, Vets fees, Mares upkeep and care, more vets fees (vacs etc), farriers fees, not to mention the worry and heartbreak associated with breeding.
I would rather keep them too as oppossed to selling them for an insult.

Unfortunatey some people probably have had to let them go as they are no longer in a position to keep them on .
In an ideal world it would be lovley to keep them .
I think though we would all snap up a bargain if we could .The reality is horse sales are gone through the floor and I dont expect anyone to give away there horses but horses that are making decent money people are still not sellling and this isnt really helpin the horse industy either .Turn over is the only way forward and I repeat I dont expect ppl to give them away but we need to start being a bit more realistic about prices too .I know this is easy said when the price of feed , bedding vets , stallions hasnt come down .

Lark
10-10-2011, 10:33 PM
Unfortunatey some people probably have had to let them go as they are no longer in a position to keep them on .
In an ideal world it would be lovley to keep them .
I think though we would all snap up a bargain if we could .The reality is horse sales are gone through the floor and I dont expect anyone to give away there horses but horses that are making decent money people are still not sellling and this isnt really helpin the horse industy either .Turn over is the only way forward and I repeat I dont expect ppl to give them away but we need to start being a bit more realistic about prices too .I know this is easy said when the price of feed , bedding vets , stallions hasnt come down .

Absolutely people need to be realistic but also I would really love if buyers understood how much it costs to breed and produce a foal never mind a 3 or 4 yr old.
We do it because we love it as the likelihood of making a living from it is very slim.

hooves
10-10-2011, 10:39 PM
Absolutely people need to be realistic but also I would really love if buyers understood how much it costs to breed and produce a foal never mind a 3 or 4 yr old.
We do it because we love it as the likelihood of making a living from it is very slim.

Yes completley agree how disheartning it is to go to the sales and get buttons .
I think stalion owners have to really look about bringing there fees down (I know some have ) but as very few this year did I think even less in 2012 will be put in foal if prices are less than fees and sales entries , and yes I really think its about time the horse board , wetherbys etc got thier act together and started having some incentive for breeders .Simple things like lowering cost of registrations would help . Unfortunatly we will be left with no up an coming decent youngstock .

Lark
10-10-2011, 10:46 PM
Yes completley agree how disheartning it is to go to the sales and get buttons .
I think stalion owners have to really look about bringing there fees down (I know some have ) but as very few this year did I think even less in 2012 will be put in foal if prices are less than fees and sales entries , and yes I really think its about time the horse board , wetherbys etc got thier act together and started having some incentive for breeders .Simple things like lowering cost of registrations would help . Unfortunatly we will be left with no up an coming decent youngstock .

The other killer is that you take a risk on a new stallion at the listed price and by the time you have a foal on the ground the fee has come down a huge amount. Arko was 5k at the start, then down to 3k the next year; I think he is a lot less now.
We used Peppermill last year; he was at 1,800 sterling, this year he is 1,300 so already we are down 500 quid plus the mare lost the foal which resulted in about 600 quid vets fees with nothing to show for it. Fingers crossed for 2012.
Again though we do it because we love it and thankfully we are not stuck for space.

hooves
10-10-2011, 10:53 PM
The other killer is that you take a risk on a new stallion at the listed price and by the time you have a foal on the ground the fee has come down a huge amount. Arko was 5k at the start, then down to 3k the next year; I think he is a lot less now.
We used Peppermill last year; he was at 1,800 sterling, this year he is 1,300 so already we are down 500 quid plus the mare lost the foal which resulted in about 600 quid vets fees with nothing to show for it. Fingers crossed for 2012.
Again though we do it because we love it and thankfully we are not stuck for space.

best of luck for 2012, .

Jedy
11-10-2011, 01:56 PM
I'm not sure about lowering the costs, as that would artificially pump the market up. At the end of the day, breeding should be economically viable, and if it's not, it's the reasons for it that need fixing, not the cost of it. I do agree though, that in the meantime it's very important not to loose these mares. Perhaps incentive in form of grants for breeding of our well bred mares, decided upon inspection, would help? That'd cost money to organise though. Some stallions fees are too high, I agree on that. I do believe there's oo much of irresponsible beeding going on all the time. I think maybe laying restrictions on mares licensing altogether might be the way to go?

wiggy1
11-10-2011, 02:00 PM
that was introduced in the form of all horses needing to be chipped and having a passport! but this is still by passed...
by breeders etc...
hard to police, and if a grant was introduced every1 jump on the bandwagon--and horse numbers would go through the roof yet again..leading to even more depressing prices!
its a toghie.. to find a good solution--be benifical to the breeder/competitor and to the horse industry as a whole

Jedy
11-10-2011, 02:18 PM
No, I mean grants to keep GOOD mares in the program! Pending inspections.

Jedy
11-10-2011, 02:24 PM
I don't know that microchips are that hard to police- if marts are still running sales regardless of passports, then yes! Really, if time will come that horse with no passport can b sold only privately, it'll become a norm sooner or later.
But microchips themselves won't regulate the breeding; nothing will regulate the man with 6 mares and the stallion in one field either; but there's a lot of people breeding for what they think is well bred sport horse, where in fact the mare is inferior quality and shouldn't be bred. That is what should be adressed- the less of these is bred, the less of really good mares ill have o end up on the hook, cause at the nd of the day his type of breeding- " I have daughter/son of Cruisings, I'm on the win" (just an example), consists of mjority of stock in the country. Not the performance mares, not the unchipped obs, the mares ith papers, but inferior quality, that is where the numbers are.

wiggy1
11-10-2011, 02:29 PM
but then as i said before here!
touchdown bred well--some good offspring competing--he was a freak like.. didn't look a great stallion from day one!
crusing was similar--but they have done well so!
just means--gd breeding doesn't 100% mean a perfect sport horse.. for jumping,etc...

its hard to know what to do.. ie grants!! a scarppage scheme--to get rid of inferior mares...etc

Jedy
11-10-2011, 02:38 PM
Sure breeding is a gamle, and it's hard to know what will do well what will not. The only thing is- at times when there's no market for possible misshaps, certain lines that are known for poducing uly, just might not be best option. In grand scheme of things, in system with inspections and such, there will always be those that are not spotted on right away. But that never stops any outstanding individual from competing, achieving, and getting license based on performance. Our mares aren't put into breeding based on performance, but based on having two ovaries.
Yes, scrappage scheme would suit me just fine! Anything to seperate chaff from grain.

Lark
11-10-2011, 02:44 PM
I don't know that microchips are that hard to police- if marts are still running sales regardless of passports, then yes! Really, if time will come that horse with no passport can b sold only privately, it'll become a norm sooner or later.
But microchips themselves won't regulate the breeding; nothing will regulate the man with 6 mares and the stallion in one field either; but there's a lot of people breeding for what they think is well bred sport horse, where in fact the mare is inferior quality and shouldn't be bred. That is what should be adressed- the less of these is bred, the less of really good mares ill have o end up on the hook, cause at the nd of the day his type of breeding- " I have daughter/son of Cruisings, I'm on the win" (just an example), consists of mjority of stock in the country. Not the performance mares, not the unchipped obs, the mares ith papers, but inferior quality, that is where the numbers are.

Ahhhhhhh Jedy!! Do you mean to say that my Cruising mare is not going to guarantee me the next Libertina...gutted.com :eek: :p
On another note though we have come down to 2 mares now plus the retained filly we bred ourselves.
They are all very well bred with very good damlines but nothing as you say is guaranteed.
However unless you have a broodmare that has really performed at the very top (which would be lovely) the only fail safe is to go with commercial breeding lines especially for foal sales.
I think you can take a different approach to your breeding plan and stallion selection if you are an owner/breeder; retaining and producing the stock yourself. That could need an entirely different recipe than a commercial plan.
The HSI has started a mare classification program providing star ratings for mares however there is no incentive scheme and after last year I would not be entirely in a hurry to present another one.

wiggy1
11-10-2011, 02:44 PM
agree with ya!
see again--there'e polictic's associated with inspections for grants.. want to get judges from afar to these lands for them!
as bit of a click in this country at mo--both at these inspection and in showing horses-in general!! from what i see..

who knows, whats ahead for the horse breeder in this country-by times have come and gone b4..just a matter of putting head down and surviving it..as fingers crossed the irish bred horses will surface and complete and win at world standards yet again!
also mayb the newbie breeders will fade away,as time goes on!

Napoles
11-10-2011, 03:18 PM
but then as i said before here!
touchdown bred well--some good offspring competing--he was a freak like.. didn't look a great stallion from day one!
crusing was similar--but they have done well so!


Huh? Why? Both horses had great breeding themselves and were proven international competitors??
Touchdown was by Galoubet and out of an International Showjumping mare and Cruising by Seacrest and out of a mare by Tara.

Jedy
11-10-2011, 03:30 PM
Ah, Lark, yours ill poduce not Libertina but Liscalgot! :D
I know you get my drift-the ones of Cruising, Touchdown, they are at even bigger risk- so many people go by the name alone! I have a neighbour who gave up paying stud fees couple of years back- they run mares wit their own colt now. A "Cruising Horse". Only when you start digging he's a son of son's of Cruising and no one remembers what he was called... That's the extreme. Those same people laughed at me, said I was daft, when I sold my 15.2 Cruising mare for 6.5 as a riding horse. Now, she'd jump moon and a sky, but broodmare she was not, and I couldn't give her competition home that ime. 6.5 was the value of her, I still doubled my money on her, pulling her out of field, thin ith split hoof nd a foal at ide. Made a horse out of her, and they laughed. 12 months afterwards i wouldn't have gotten that, and that's omething my neighbour didn't see coming. I did. There's soooo many of those people. You know not every cross is to be considered for Cruising, but many don't. Yes, breeding for producing and for selling foals is very different, I agree. What I would like to see though, is breeders of foals having a back up plan for foals; any foal I have ever bred I'd love to keep, but it fetched too much money or me to refuse. I'll have the same situation coming spring, haven't had hlfbred fol or two years, nd if I get a filly, I'd nearly pray she won't fetch enough to let go. My mare never let me own yet with her foals. Also, I'd like to see breeders reaching out and giving good money for competition mares to breed from.

I totally agree about politics in inspections and grants!!!! That's a reason for me being in favour of breeding as a self regulating industry, but I'm coming to conclusion that people are too slow to learn for that.
I think, really, us, the lovers of the horse, will keep the show going.

Jedy
11-10-2011, 03:31 PM
Huh? Why? Both horses had great breeding themselves and were proven international competitors??
Touchdown was by Galoubet and out of an International Showjumping mare and Cruising by Seacrest and out of a mare by Tara.

Perhaps it's because of how he looked? And in fairness, I've seen a good number of very ugly Touchdowns.

Napoles
11-10-2011, 03:34 PM
Yeah, I know he wasn't a great looker, but I can think of a few more of our famous stallions that you could say that about too. Maybe they just work well with Irish mares. :D

wiggy1
11-10-2011, 03:35 PM
think there's more bad touchdowns out there than the great ones.
but then-blame the mare(owners) for that
as they went with everything to him,at times!!

Jedy
11-10-2011, 03:40 PM
In fairness, going for looks won't bring us back the excellence either. But, my goodness, I watched elite sale in Germany the other day, and very bleeding horse danced even in walk, beside the handler. They were QUALITY. They were desirable, compelling. We need to get our act seriously together, to keep Irish strong! We need to rethink our attitude towards "traditional". We need to allow our horses to evolve, and I believe, it it means injecting foreign blood, so be it. Get good Irish mare, breed to top foreign horse, and put the filly back to Irish. We need excellence.

Napoles
11-10-2011, 03:40 PM
Few eventing stats on Touchdown:
http://www.eventingireland.com/horses/ancestors.asp?action=details&type=sire&id=1141
Paulank Brokagh went through the FEHL and competed Boekelo CCI*** last weekend.
Milridge Keano looked VERY impressive in the CCI*** at Ballindenisk two or three weekends ago. :)
Both of those horses are good lookers anyway. :)

Lark
11-10-2011, 03:51 PM
Milridge Keano looked VERY impressive in the CCI*** at Ballindenisk two or three weekends ago. :)
Both of those horses are good lookers anyway. :)

Thats my other lottery horse - just love him! :love:

Napoles
11-10-2011, 03:53 PM
Gorgeous isn't he. I know someone who just bought his full sister. Nice buy! :)

Lark
11-10-2011, 04:12 PM
Gorgeous isn't he. I know someone who just bought his full sister. Nice buy! :)

Seriously!! (its not you is it????)

Napoles
12-10-2011, 12:39 PM
Lol!! Nope, not me - I have enough purchasing done for one year! :D

Lark
12-10-2011, 12:44 PM
Lol!! Nope, not me - I have enough purchasing done for one year! :D

Lol well sure you never know :)
I am thinking of heading to Goresbridge on Saturday for a little bit of a look see; no chance before then :( (would have loved to have gone today). Please feel fee to look at the catalogue for shopping ideas :D

Napoles
12-10-2011, 12:52 PM
Is that the Going for Gold one? I'd love to have a nosy as well, but doubt if I would get time to make the trek. Be very interested to see how it pans out.

Lark
12-10-2011, 12:56 PM
Is that the Going for Gold one? I'd love to have a nosy as well, but doubt if I would get time to make the trek. Be very interested to see how it pans out.

No the Going for Gold one is on in November and totally agree that will be very interesting. Some of the 4yr olds have done ALOT :eek: I need to get my skates on!
The sales this week are the mare and foal sales.
I would love to know more about Arkan; Drumhowan Stud are another one that is very light on the ground with info on the net.

wiggy1
12-10-2011, 01:07 PM
what want to know about them? drumhowan stud

Lark
12-10-2011, 01:23 PM
what want to know about them? drumhowan stud

There are just no details on the net about Arkan, photos, performance, registration etc.
He has a few foals up over the next few days and one in particular out of a very successful Baloubet de Rouet mare.

wiggy1
12-10-2011, 01:29 PM
http://www.annebedford.com/arkan.htm

some info on him i think

wiggy1
12-10-2011, 01:31 PM
http://www.greenacres-stud.com/arkan.htm

similar info

Lark
12-10-2011, 01:43 PM
Thanks wiggy found those links alright but nothing since he left Anne Bedfords; performance, grading/registration etc.

wiggy1
12-10-2011, 01:47 PM
what looking for exactly--his offspring??